The Minority Report! Diversity In The MU.

[leo619]

So I see that "x quota is not met" "there's not enough people of y group in x book, etc." is still thrown around a lot so I've decided to look at the Marvel lineup:

Ongoing or upcoming Books featuring a straight white male/men in the leading role
1.) New Avengers
2.) Iron Man/Superior Iron Man
3.) Amazing Spider-Man
4.) Hulk (even though he's green I'll still put it here....)
5.) Cyclops
6.) Daredevil
7.) Deadpool
8.) Iron-Fist: The Living Weapon
9.) Legendary Star-Lord
10.) Magneto
11.) Loki: Agent of Asgard (Will put it here even though Loki frequently crossdresses and is implied to be bisexual...)
12.) Moonknight
13.) Nightcrawler (He's blue...but whatever)
14.) Punisher
15.) Savage Hulk
16.) Uncanny X-Men (pretty much Cyclops-centric)
17.) X-Force (Cable-centric)
18.) Bucky Barnes Winter Soldier
19.) Hawkeye



Ongoing or upcoming Books not featuring a straight white male/men in the leading role
1.) Avengers (assuming the new roster is put together after Axis)
2.) Captain America and the Mighty Avengers
3.) Captain America
4.) She-Thor
5.) All-New Ghost Rider
6.) All-New X-Men (pretty much stars Jean/Laura these days without Cyclops)
7.) Secret Avengers (pretty much a Maria Hill show)
8.) Black Widow
9.) Captain Marvel
10.) Ms. Marvel
11.) Elektra
12.) Inhuman (Dante is hispanic)
13.) Iron Patriot
14.) Miles Morales: Ultimate Spider-Man
15.) All-New Ultimates (female team book)
16.) Ultimate FF (Sue-centric)
17.) Nova (Sam Alexander is hispanic right?)
18.) She-Hulk
19.) Spider-Man 2099
20.) Silk
21.) Angela: Asgard's Assassin
22.) Squirrel Girl
23.) Storm
24.) X-Men
25.) Gamora
26.) Spider-Gwen

Note this is not every series, there are some ambiguous categories like All-New Invaders (I'm not sure if Captain America is going to be replaced by black cap in it), Uncanny Avengers/Logan's Legacy (no clear lead), and GOTG (also no clear lead), etc.. Also completely non-human or humanoid (Doop, Rocket, Silver Surfer, etc.) books.

In any regard, we see a gap between non-"diverse" vs. diverse series. So is there really an issue?

Is this guy trolling or is he being serious?

[megaharrison]

Is this guy trolling or is he being serious?

The numbers speak for themselves. I'm not sure how you can say I'm wrong when it's mathematically proven. In any regard the responses to this are interesting, and seem to be saying that it still isn't enough to have minorities featured in the majority of titles. I'm curious as to when it'll be enough.

[mugiwara]

I'm guessing the white male lead books have higher profile creative teams. Why do you think that is?

I'm not sure of that, at least not right now, but that depends of what one consider as a high profile creative team.

Captain America: Remender. Thor: Aaron. All Old X-Men and Ultimate Spider Man: Bendis. Not that bad.

(note: the list needs to be updated. On the diversity side, Ultimate FF and Iron Patriot don't exist anymore. On the white male side, there is Silver Surfer, the 2 GotG titles, Superior Foes, Spider Man & the X-Men, and maybe some I am forgetting)

A question: why isn't Marvel promoting Silk as the first asian Spider Woman?

[Kieran_Frost]

A question: why isn't Marvel promoting Silk as the first asian Spider Woman?

No idea. Maybe because she's not taking the main mantle, so it's less "big news"? I don't know. How many Asian solo comics have we had? Ms. Marvel and... ???

[ed2962]

The numbers speak for themselves. I'm not sure how you can say I'm wrong when it's mathematically proven. In any regard the responses to this are interesting, and seem to be saying that it still isn't enough to have minorities featured in the majority of titles. I'm curious as to when it'll be enough.

The numbers do not speak for themselves. You had to do some reaching to get your lists to come out the way you wanted. You conveniently ignore characters like Wolverine, the fact that when the Surfer is drawn in his human form he's a white male, Starlord is obviously the leader of the GOTG. Saying things like, "it might as well be the so-and-so show..."

Your "when will it be enough" comment shows your odd belief that if Marvel puts out a comic starring a woman or a minority as the title character, it's somehow is taking something away from straight white men.

[ed2962]

No idea. Maybe because she's not taking the main mantle, so it's less "big news"? I don't know. How many Asian solo comics have we had? Ms. Marvel and... ???

Marvel just finished a Deadly Hands of Kung Fu mini

[Kieran_Frost]

The numbers do not speak for themselves. You had to do some reaching to get your lists to come out the way you wanted. You conveniently ignore characters like Wolverine, the fact that when the Surfer is drawn in his human form he's a white male, Starlord is obviously the leader of the GOTG. Saying things like, "it might as well be the so-and-so show..."

And many comics aren't on the list, like Amazing X-men, Wolverine and the X-men, soon to be Spiderman and the X-men (plus count comics that haven't been released AND ones that have been cancelled). Ignore the list, it's pointless (and negative).

We want lists celebrating things, not being negative. For example:

TEAM COMICS EXCELLING IN DIVERSITY (i.e. over 2/3 of the cast is a minority, be it female, POC or LGBT)
- X-men
- Mighty Avengers
- Uncanny X-men

That's worth celebrating.

Marvel just finished a Deadly Hands of Kung Fu mini

Oh, I meant on-goings. We've definitely had a few minis (Jubilee's had several, I think), but on-going solos... I can't think of any.

[aja_christopher]

The numbers speak for themselves. I'm not sure how you can say I'm wrong when it's mathematically proven. In any regard the responses to this are interesting, and seem to be saying that it still isn't enough to have minorities featured in the majority of titles. I'm curious as to when it'll be enough.

If you want to get technical about it -- using "numbers" and statistics, that is -- straight white males make up about 25-30% of the American population... a number that is decreasing more and more and time goes on.

If you want to talk global population -- applicable when dealing with comic books where heroes (such as Storm and Wolverine) come from all parts of the globe -- that number drops to about 10-15%... a number that is also decreasing rapidly.

I hope those numbers also speak for themselves, as they are mathematically proven.

As someone else mentioned, this isn't about "quotas" or anything like that, but if it were, Marvel (and nearly every other American entertainment company) would still be falling short.

[Trident]

Errrr... "I don't really care..." (followed by tons of justification defending excluding LGBT status). It's the "How Would You Feel If Hickman Didn't Out His LGBT Avenger" thread all over again (where again you "didn't care one way or another" yet were sure in that thread defending Hickman an awful lot). Don't become a pattern, good sir.

P.S. lastly: surely you are not naive enough to honestly think any TV show won't have romance in it, right? I mean... COME ON! Have you ever watched a TV show? I'm hard pressed to think of any TV show void of romance; and when it's a show focused on one person? "No romance" LOL! Riiiiiiiight! I'd be shocked if we even go 5 episodes without Constantine displaying his heterosexuality.

Lol you an expert at making something more that what it is.

I said I don't care because that character has never been a blip on my radar. Only reason why I was inquiring about him at all was because you claimed producers were falling all over themselves over the issue. That would be interesting to see and a good source to use down the road. But instead it seems more like a fan once again blowing something out of proportion.

Also, just so you can stop disparaging my name I'm not against Hickman adding or reveling a gay character. What I was against is you or anyone else promoting and spreading negativity about titles I like for reasons that aren't factual or relevant to the title. You created a thread in the vein that individuals could give their opinion. When you didn't like that opinion you did similar what you are doing to me now....making sly accusations as if you discovered the try core of the person and their reasons for stating such.

A writer should be free to tell the story he wants to tell within the confines of the rules of the universe he is telling it in. When you have a writer that each issue is pretty much moving the plot ,even during the times you think it isn't, it is hard for a majority of people on this board to get angry over not outing a gay character on the team just to please a particular fan base and never address it again. Your a good poster and fun to have around but often times it seems like you take this sorta thing way to personally and you have a habit of passive aggressively attacking people who don't see things entirely your way. But in spite of that what's not a "good look" is continually starting or posting in threads attacking writers and making unfair accusations about them, when you personally have never met them, just because something isn't happening that you want in a book you do or do not read.

This last bit isn't direct at just you....

Marvel comics are about men and women doing their best to defend the world they live in. Their personal lives and who they date will always be secondary to that especially when the title that has a cast 20 something people. If an individual has a problem with that then again I say maybe they are reading the wrong form of entertainment for them. It's not personal, it's not discriminatory, but it is what it is. If you want a title where a group of heroes date first and kick ass later, I'm sure somewhere their is a book for you. If you want a title where heroes are making out every other page or go further than even that, I'm sure somewhere their is a book for you. But in this particular case when it's based on dating and romantic relationships of a character don't expect a writer to change the nature of a book to please you as an individual when you as an individual are free to find and buy the books that fit what you want and what you are looking for.

[Trident]

So I see that "x quota is not met" "there's not enough people of y group in x book, etc." is still thrown around a lot so I've decided to look at the Marvel lineup:

Ongoing or upcoming Books featuring a straight white male/men in the leading role
1.) New Avengers
2.) Iron Man/Superior Iron Man
3.) Amazing Spider-Man
4.) Hulk (even though he's green I'll still put it here....)
5.) Cyclops
6.) Daredevil
7.) Deadpool
8.) Iron-Fist: The Living Weapon
9.) Legendary Star-Lord
10.) Magneto
11.) Moonknight
12.) Nightcrawler (He's blue...but whatever)
13.) Punisher
14.) Savage Hulk
15.) Uncanny X-Men (pretty much Cyclops-centric)
16.) X-Force (Cable-centric)
17.) Bucky Barnes Winter Soldier
18.) Hawkeye



Ongoing or upcoming Books not featuring a straight white male/men in the leading role
1.) Avengers (assuming the new roster is put together after Axis)
2.) Captain America and the Mighty Avengers
3.) Captain America
4.) She-Thor
5.) All-New Ghost Rider
6.) All-New X-Men (pretty much stars Jean/Laura these days without Cyclops)
7.) Secret Avengers (pretty much a Maria Hill show)
8.) Black Widow
9.) Captain Marvel
10.) Ms. Marvel
11.) Elektra
12.) Inhuman (Dante is hispanic)
13.) Iron Patriot
14.) Miles Morales: Ultimate Spider-Man
15.) All-New Ultimates (female team book)
16.) Ultimate FF (Sue-centric)
17.) Nova (Sam Alexander is hispanic right?)
18.) She-Hulk
19.) Spider-Man 2099
20.) Silk
21.) Angela: Asgard's Assassin
22.) Squirrel Girl
23.) Storm
24.) X-Men
25.) Gamora
26.) Spider-Gwen
27.) Loki (he's bisexual and occasionally a woman)
28.) Spider-Woman

Note this is not every series, there are some ambiguous categories like All-New Invaders (I'm not sure if Captain America is going to be replaced by black cap in it), Uncanny Avengers/Logan's Legacy (no clear lead), and GOTG (also no clear lead), etc.. Also completely non-human or humanoid (Doop, Rocket, Silver Surfer, etc.) books.

In any regard, we see a gap between non-"diverse" vs. diverse series. So is there really an issue?

Magento is technically Jewish. I know a lot of times they get looked over as a true minority but....the guy survived concentration camps, I think he classifies.

Your "when will it be enough" comment shows your odd belief that if Marvel puts out a comic starring a woman or a minority as the title character, it's somehow is taking something away from straight white men.

Yeah it does sorta seem like how Meg was coming across.

[Kieran_Frost]

If you want to get technical about it -- using "numbers" and statistics, that is -- straight white males make up about 25-30% of the American population... a number that is decreasing more and more and time goes on.

If you want to talk global population -- applicable when dealing with comic books where heroes come from all parts of the globe -- that number drops to about 10-15%... a number that is also decreasing rapidly.

I hope those numbers also speak for themselves, as they are mathematically proven.

As someone else mentioned, this isn't about "quotas" or anything like that, but if it were, Marvel (and nearly every other American entertainment company) would still be falling short.

Also, that chart (did you save the link) that showed the demographic in the real world vs. comic representation diversity would help this debate?

Lol you an expert at making something more that what it is.

I said I don't care because that character has never been a blip on my radar. Only reason why I was inquiring about him at all was because you claimed producers were falling all over themselves over the issue. That would be interesting to see and a good source to use down the road. But instead it seems more like a fan once again blowing something out of proportion.

Also, just so you can stop disparaging my name I'm not against Hickman adding or reveling a gay character. What I was against is you or anyone else promoting and spreading negativity about titles I like for reasons that aren't factual or relevant to the title. You created a thread in the vein that individuals could give their opinion. When you didn't like that opinion you did similar what you are doing to me now....making sly accusations as if you discovered the try core of the person and their reasons for stating such.

A writer should be free to tell the story he wants to tell within the confines of the rules of the universe he is telling it in. When you have a writer that each issue is pretty much moving the plot ,even during the times you think it isn't, it is hard for a majority of people on this board to get angry over not outing a gay character on the team just to please a particular fan base and never address it again. Your a good poster and fun to have around but often times it seems like you take this sorta thing way to personally and you have a habit of passive aggressively attacking people who don't see things entirely your way. But in spite of that what's not a "good look" is continually starting or posting in threads attacking writers and making unfair accusations about them, when you personally have never met them, just because something isn't happening that you want in a book you do or do not read.

This last bit isn't direct at just you....

Marvel comics are about men and women doing their best to defend the world they live in. Their personal lives and who they date will always be secondary to that especially when the title that has a cast 20 something people. If an individual has a problem with that then again I say maybe they are reading the wrong form of entertainment for them. It's not personal, it's not discriminatory, but it is what it is. If you want a title where a group of heroes date first and kick ass later, I'm sure somewhere their is a book for you. If you want a title where heroes are making out every other page or go further than even that, I'm sure somewhere their is a book for you. But in this particular case when it's based on dating and romantic relationships of a character don't expect a writer to change the nature of a book to please you as an individual when you as an individual are free to find me buy the books that fit what you want and are looking for.

You kept saying you don't care... and just to prove how much you are indifferent: you make such giant posts on the topic???

[Trident]

*le sigh* You kept saying you don't care... and just to prove how much you are indifferent: you make such giant posts on the topic? The lady doth protest too much, me thinks?

Just setting you straight friend. Your coyness of implications isn't appreciated and now you know where I stand on the position. To further apply such implications will just result in me reporting you for breaking some of the forums mandates. Which I would rather not do.

[aja_christopher]

I dunno...I'm not sure this one counts as history making. He's a gay man playing a straight character which has been been going on for years. It's probably more of a win in the sense that Miller is an openly gay actor playing an action hero, which could help breaks stereotypes in Hollywood.

Ironically enough, actors like Rock Hudson played these kinds of heroes for years, becoming icons in the process.

Other actors like James Dean, Joan Crawford, and Katherine Hepburn were LGBT as well, but this wasn't widely reported. One has to wonder how many others simply stayed "in the closet" so as not to potentially damage their careers.

I think the flip side of this is that there just aren't many openly "A-List" LGBT heroes (or characters) to begin with, which makes casting one difficult... and is one of the main reasons I think DC should give a Batwoman movie a shot, if only to get the ball rolling.

Maybe Marvel could do a Loki movie, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

[aja_christopher]

The numbers do not speak for themselves. You had to do some reaching to get your lists to come out the way you wanted. You conveniently ignore characters like Wolverine, the fact that when the Surfer is drawn in his human form he's a white male, Starlord is obviously the leader of the GOTG. Saying things like, "it might as well be the so-and-so show..."

Your "when will it be enough" comment shows your odd belief that if Marvel puts out a comic starring a woman or a minority as the title character, it's somehow is taking something away from straight white men.

[Kieran_Frost]

Just setting you straight friend. Your coyness of implications isn't appreciated and now you know where I stand on the position. To further apply such implications will just result in me reporting you for breaking some of the forums mandates. Which I would rather not do.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, it seems.