Superman and Killing

[Kurosawa]

Why do people who have an aversion to Superman using lethal force, all repeat the same statement? That Superman should "never have been put/written in to that situation". Another recurring statement is "Superman always finds a 3rd way out of any dilemma he's in. Mark Waid stated the same thing in his review last year.

IMO that is advocating plot immunity for Superman. What's the point of putting Superman (a god tier character) in to a high stakes situation or battle and then giving Superman 100% plot armor to making a tough decisions? I think you do the character a disservice by not allowing him to face tough choices that will have an effect on his character moving forward. Superman can't be the king of all Superheroes if he's never faced a no win situation. Kobayoshi Maru anyone? It's a test of character, not in the actions but how one conducts themselves under extreme circumstances.

The flip side of that is to do what Mickey did to Rocky Balboa in Rocky III. Mickey lied to Rocky and cherry picked all of his opponents; opponents he knew Rocky could beat. While simultaneously avoiding pairing Rocky with fighters like Clubber Lang (Mr T) who he knew Rocky would lose to. When Rocky learned that Mickey had lied to him, Rocky was plagued with self doubt over his false sense of success (he had 10 title defenses since beating Apollo Creed). Mickey had created a situation where Rocky believed he was better than he really was. It was all done out of a sense of love and protection, but cause Rocky to fail when Rocky did meet Clubber in the ring.

It's the same with some writers and fan approaches to Superman. They don't want to see the character face a no win scenario or a scenario where Superman could fail in. They want the character to be that knight in shining armor absent scratches and dings from his countless battles with evil. Other characters (such as Batman, Thor, Iron Man, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Flash, Captain America, Spider-Man) have all used lethal force multiple times in their various depictions in different media, and yet no one get's up in arms over that. Why is Superman held to such a vastly different standard?

Superman is held to a higher standard because he is the greatest superhero of them all. He should be and by great writers he IS placed in no win scenarios where he could fail-the difference is, he does not fail. Because he is the greatest, not the most powerful or the smartest.

What people like Goyer and Snyder do is the drag Superman down to everyone else's level. Because they don't believe in the character-he seems to good to be true, so to him he isn't. It's the Frank Miller school of Superman, and the fact that DC-a company that does not like or believe in Superman-chose an acolyte of Miller in Zack Snyder to hand their movies to is not a coincidence. It all goes back to the shame and embarrassment they feel towards their characters and their history.

One should leave a Superman movie inspired by Superman, not disappointed in him.

Superman doesn't need to know how to use his powers in order to have the "Superman" code of ethics. His ethical disposition doesn't come from knowing how to be Superman. It comes from being raised by good people. Or at least it usually does...in this movie his parents are very useless and damaging.

I could go with this if he were just flat out making tactical mistakes. If he were failing to think of things while Lois Lane was shouting "THROW HIM INTO SPACE, YOU FUCKING IDIOT!" But the mistakes he's making aren't rooted in tactical error, they're rooted in ethical lapse. His first priority should be to minimize the death of innocent people. He should be trying to manipulate this fight so that it can't hurt people. I don't see him even trying to do that. That shot where he just casually floats over the gas tanker while it explodes and destroys a building behind him, and he doesn't even look behind him to see what kind of destruction that caused. The Superman I know would've caught the tanker and put it down safely. If at 33 years old you don't realize that your actions have consequences, ESPECIALLY with the power he obviously knows he has, then you really are a menace and not worthy of trust. He flies at Zod next to the building at top speed, knowing what that kind of impact does to the space around them. He knows it'll just destroy that building, and once it does he just flies away like WHO GIVES A DAMN IM SUPERMAN. Clark is the one who tackled Zod for miles though empty farm land crashing into silos and an 7-11 into an populated area. He punches Kryptonians into potentially populated trains. He crashed Krypton's baby pod ship into buildings and an street. Also, Superman left that girl being harassed by the Trucker to continue to be harassed as he left to passive aggressively take revenge on him by fucking over his job - which doesn't hurt the trucker. He'll be on the road in a few days tops because insurance.

By the way, at no point in the film do they say: Well he's a new hero so he's gonna have some hiccups. That never happens. Everyone is pretty much okay with what Superman did. The whole idea that "well he needs to learn how to become Superman" is ridiculous because they don't portray him as having to learn from any mistakes.



Isn't this from before Superheroes were role models to begin with?




Superman shouldn't accept war as a fact of life, he can see beyond that (that's what hope is). Basically, I like my Superman like I like my Batman: anti-establishment.

http://i.imgur.com/AxJGuBn.jpg (JLA 79)



Agreed.



Sometimes (uh, okay, pretty much constantly) stupid things happen in the comics.
The Superman I want to see isn't the one from all the comics, but the one from the best comics. And TV shows, and movies, and video g- okay not those.

What you're doing is cherry picking 76 years of history that's most defined by his aversion from taking a like. Even his creators wrote him like that. Y'know how Batman has been shown to sometimes be okay with killing the Joker? That's not typical, he's typically defined as being very much against that. And it's funny you put Red Glass up there, I recently read that and nothing that happened in it was real. It was a nightmare an stranded wounded alien was making Superman have so Superman could help it out. There's also comics of Superman doing other awful things like making out with 14 year olds. Would you defend that being in a major block buster movie because it happened in an comic?



So he's perfect and boring. The movie was realistic? I don't get this and I’m convinced people will label any strong and positive traits Superman is suppose to have or will ever display as perfection because they either don’t know this character or are disillusioned with the news and crappy people in their lives.

I think it’s more that it’s easier, especially these days, to overlook the complexity in characters that don’t have an apparent conflict with themselves. That’s just really become, since the 70’s especially, more and more of what we’re conditioned as a culture to immediately recognize and identify with. So characters like Wolverine or Batman are much more accessible to mainstream values, like simply on casual approach. They instantly fit within this outsider or tragic hero or self conflicted hero kind of role that is one of the primary narratives that we’re sold on every day. I mean it’s beaten into our heads with everything we see in ads and movies and song.

At one time, maybe this was flip flopped, and there’s gonna be a resulting counter action to it. The character Superman is not in any danger as long as they hold true to who he is essentially.

The only danger is to accept this association of self conflict with meaning, and to then look at Superman and try to draw out possible self conflicted kind of issues in order to make him more ‘interesting’.

And that is just the wrong way to go. I think the movie tried to do this and it felt forced and for many including myself the whole thing resulted in an fundamental misunderstanding of the entire character.

There’s a lot of depth to him, they don’t need to introduce false drama and trauma into how he works. You gotta watch out with characters like that not to project false issues on them in a desire for complexity. You got to trust that the character is great and will stand up to time if simply treated honestly and allowed to do what they naturally would from the inside to out. And on the inside Superman isn’t perfect or outdated and his life isn’t easy. It’s filled with challenges and hardships that any regular person would experience if they chose to live an deeply virtuous life style. Superman fits perfectly with the world as it is now. For as long as the world needs an example of a completely selfless person who is willing to dedicate himself to the people around him the world will venerate Jesus…and Superman. And he isn't cliched, he's the 1st. The thing that made the globe run out to make their heroes.

Great, great post.



Superman doesn't acknowledge the idea of "impossible".

[DochaDocha]

One should leave a Superman movie inspired by Superman, not disappointed in him.

I like the way you put it here. Even if you feel Superman's justified, there's still a large chunk of fans who questioned Superman afterwards. Not killing the villain is almost always more morally justifiable, even if it's not really pragmatic.

[The Overlord]

I think there is a huge middle ground between Superman being a totally perfect and infallible and Superman being someone who gets thousands of people killed due to his recklessness.

I don't want perfect infallible Superman, because that drastically limits the amount of stories you can do with him. Superman is not God, he is still subject to same emotions as humans, for all his powers and intelligence, he is still subject to many the same limitations as humans. Superman is not omnipotent or omniscient, the fact he is not very effective against the Spectre proves that. So because he is not God, he is capable of making mistakes, even geniuses make mistakes. Superman is more inspiring if he does heroic things in spite of his ability to make mistakes, because if Superman can just instantly do the right thing, it sends the message that for Superman the right thing is just easy thing and that is not inspiring, is he doing the right thing because it is the right thing or the easy thing? Superman doing the right thing, not because its easy or because he can make no mistakes, but because he weighs the options carefully and takes the best course of action despite the fact he could be making a mistake more inspiring.

That being said, Superman should learn from his mistakes and he made a lot of them in MOS. I hope in the next movie Superman is far more careful and I don't think he should kill a sentient being in this movie franchise ever again. I can accept Superman, on very rare occasions, killing an opponent if there is no other choice. However I can understand people who think Superman killing at all ruins the fun and fantastic nature of the character. So even though I didn't have a big problem with Superman killing Zod, I could see why others would. But if Superman kills on a regular basis, you are missing an important point about the character, so I hope Superman doesn't kill again in this movie series and I hope both Zod's death and the almost total destruction of Metropolis is addressed in the next film.

I will say two of the best super hero movies of this year, involve the heroes doing the right thing over the easy thing (in Days of Future Past, young Xavier saves the future by convincing Mystique not to kill Trask and in Winter Solider, Captain America immediately opposes Project Insight) and both of them are rewarded for doing the right thing, even though its not easy. Superman should do the right thing, not because its easy, but because its right, give Superman a moral dilemma (not an easy one) and let him pass with flying colors, make him be hopeful in spite of his ability to make mistakes.

[Kurosawa]

I like the way you put it here. Even if you feel Superman's justified, there's still a large chunk of fans who questioned Superman afterwards. Not killing the villain is almost always more morally justifiable, even if it's not really pragmatic.

As I've said before, there is a way they could have had Superman kill Zod in MOS and it would have worked. But what made it work so badly in MOS is it was just the rotten cherry on top of the **** sundae that was the entire movie. "Superman" is a thoughtless menace to humanity through the entire movie, taking battles into populated areas, not caring for a second about the destruction and loss of life he was contributing to, committing genocide on his own race, and generally not being any sort of hero. There is no hero in MOS, to be honest. The closest there is to one is maybe Lois. All Superman is in the movie is a tool-a tool of Jor-El, of Lois and the US Military, of Jonathan Kent, and of Zod. He's plenty super but he's not much of a man.

[Francisco]

The matter of the fact is that your Superman is boring Kurosawa. PerfectMan is boring. The first time I saw MOS I left the theatre inspired and most importantly entertained. It was so awesome that I watched 4 more times. I hope that Superman you love so much doesn't come back because it would kill the character forever. Perfect god who never makes a mistake and always find a way is boring and uninteresting. That's why Batman/Spiderman/Wolverine and Tarzan's granma have overshadowed Superman in the last few decades. That notion that if you read a comic or watch a movie or cartoon starring Superman there won't be struggle or action at all and that the perfect overpwered god is going to fix everything by spinning the earth backwards.

[Shawn Hopkins]

Should never happen, period. I don't care if it's not realistic. It's a made-up story by creators that should be creative enough to find a way to avoid it.

[Francisco]

Should never happen, period. I don't care if it's not realistic. It's a made-up story by creators that should be creative enough to find a way to avoid it.

Why should it never happen? I agree it is a made up story so they could do whatever they wanted and they wanted Superman to kill Zod. So he killed Zod.

[Lexrules]

The matter of the fact is that your Superman is boring Kurosawa. PerfectMan is boring. The first time I saw MOS I left the theatre inspired and most importantly entertained. It was so awesome that I watched 4 more times. I hope that Superman you love so much doesn't come back because it would kill the character forever. Perfect god who never makes a mistake and always find a way is boring and uninteresting. That's why Batman/Spiderman/Wolverine and Tarzan's granma have overshadowed Superman in the last few decades. That notion that if you read a comic or watch a movie or cartoon starring Superman there won't be struggle or action at all and that the perfect overpwered god is going to fix everything by spinning the earth backwards.

I'd rather have Superman lost forever and never seen again then to have him turn into just another hero which is happening because of DC letting it happen by listening to people they never did in the past and never should to begin with. The character deserves better then that and so does his fan base.

Superman simply is better then any Superhero ever created in the fact that they only exist because of Superman. No Superman = No Batman, No Spider-Man,No Wolverine, and for you no Green Lantern.

[jaybay]

The matter of the fact is that your Superman is boring Kurosawa. PerfectMan is boring. The first time I saw MOS I left the theatre inspired and most importantly entertained. It was so awesome that I watched 4 more times. I hope that Superman you love so much doesn't come back because it would kill the character forever. Perfect god who never makes a mistake and always find a way is boring and uninteresting. That's why Batman/Spiderman/Wolverine and Tarzan's granma have overshadowed Superman in the last few decades. That notion that if you read a comic or watch a movie or cartoon starring Superman there won't be struggle or action at all and that the perfect overpwered god is going to fix everything by spinning the earth backwards.

As it is, when I walked out of the theater, I had seen a film about a guy who saved the planet from himself (he's the only reason Zod came), and caused massive destruction both in the immediate aftermath and shortly thereafter in the form of destroying the drone in front of an guy who had every reason to fear him. He killed to solve his problems, left his mom with two hostile aliens, did nothing to save his dad, went to the other side of the planet while thousands were being actively killed, and passed judgement on an entire species by annihilating Krypton's hope at an revival. I can't even believe we're talking about Superman here. I see absolutely no reason why I'd want this guy on the planet -- he's more trouble than he's worth. As for those other heroes, there is no tension when I watch them, maybe for Spiderman but definitely not Wolverine and Batman. All heroes win in the end.

The problem with all the mistakes Superman makes is that there is too many, too mischaracterized and they're staining. The poor choices and failure are so omnipresent that they become part of his character. For me Superman was redefined in this movie as an incompetent superhero.

As a result now, I'm incapable of imagining him winning in future adventures. It was subconscious at first. I keep trying to imagine what he will do facing Batman or Lex Luthor and it almost always ended with him losing automatically. Not speaking logically (as if that's ever mattered) and it isn't what I set to do but it feels more natural this way.

Basically, I don't believe in him and I never needed that to happen in order to connect with him. This is an character I could never learn to admire or love.

I never watched BTBAB or really anything hero related and complained about how it's unrealistic and there are tough choices that need to be made. Batman was more invincible than Superman and that didn't bore me.

[Francisco]

I'd rather have Superman lost forever and never seen again then to have him turn into just another hero which is happening because people are letting it happen. The character deserves better then that and so do his fanbase.

Got news for you. Superman is just another hero. The coolest and greatest amongst superheroes but just another one though. He needs to struggle, to have doubts to overcome difficulties and make mistakes and face the consequences of those mistakes and become greater by doing so.

[Lexrules]

Got news for you. Superman is just another hero. The coolest and greatest amongst superheroes but just another one though. He needs to struggle, to have doubts to overcome difficulties and make mistakes and face the consequences of those mistakes and become greater by doing so.

That's where your wrong and why I feel you simply just don't understand. You could read other Superheroes. I could care less about other Superheroes. There is only one Superhero that matters and that's Superman. The comic book industry as a whole could fold up tomorrow and I wouldn't give a damn as long as Superman was still being made. In fact I would love for that to happen. lol

[Francisco]

As it is, when I walked out of the theater, I had seen a film about a guy who saved the planet from himself (he's the only reason Zod came), and caused massive destruction both in the immediate aftermath and shortly thereafter in the form of destroying the drone in front of an guy who had every reason to fear him. He killed to solve his problems, left his mom with two hostile aliens, did nothing to save his dad, went to the other side of the planet while thousands were being actively killed, and passed judgement on an entire species by annihilating Krypton's hope at an revival. I can't even believe we're talking about Superman here. I see absolutely no reason why I'd want this guy on the planet -- he's more trouble than he's worth. As for those other heroes, there is no tension when I watch them, maybe for Spiderman but definitely not Wolverine and Batman. All heroes win in the end.

The problem with all the mistakes Superman makes is that there is too many, too mischaracterized and they're staining. The poor choices and failure are so omnipresent that they become part of his character. For me Superman was redefined in this movie as an incompetent superhero.

As a result now, I'm incapable of imagining him winning in future adventures. It was subconscious at first. I keep trying to imagine what he will do facing Batman or Lex Luthor and it almost always ended with him losing automatically. Not speaking logically (as if that's ever mattered) and it isn't what I set to do but it feels more natural this way.

Basically, I don't believe in him and I never needed that to happen in order to connect with him. This is an character I could never learn to admire or love.

I never watched BTBAB or really anything hero related and complained about how it's unrealistic and there are tough choices that need to be made. Batman was more invincible than Superman and that didn't bore me.

Kal El didn't come to earth by his own will. He was sent by his parents when he was just a baby. You can't blame him for the actions of other people (lara, Jor El, Zod and Jonathan)
He went to the other side of the world because there was where the world engine was at. If he hadn't destroyed the world engine more people would have died.
Krypton was already dead. Zod and his men were relics of a outdated/sterile doomed culture. Besides the future of krypton still lives in Kal's DNA. What was he supposed to do? Let Zod terraform and "genocide" humanity?
He killed to save a family and to prevent genocide. His first option was to send Zod and the other kryptonians to the phantom zone.

He destroyed the drone to protect his own privacy. I didn't see the general being afraid of Superman quite the contrary he was just anoyed by the destruction of the drone and much more anoyed by the pressure he was getting from Washington. He knows the only reason he and the rest of humanity is alive is because the man of steel snapped a neck. :P

[jaybay]

Got news for you. Superman is just another hero. The coolest and greatest amongst superheroes but just another one though. He needs to struggle, to have doubts to overcome difficulties and make mistakes and face the consequences of those mistakes and become greater by doing so.

Giving Superman a legitimate struggle is fine, but muddying his message by forcing him into all these insane situations is another thing entirely. The point of Superman is that he always rises to any challenge he faces. He may struggle, he may falter but he always overcomes. MOS sells another message entirely. That even Superman can't win sometimes. Even Superman has to compromise. Keep your gifts a secret. Give into fear. Do what others tell you. There isn't always a way. Even Superman has to blink in the face of evil.

Superman is suppose to be an example, symbol of hope. He is everything we can be. If even the best of us has to be painted in shades of gray, what hope do we have?

[Francisco]

Giving Superman a legitimate struggle is fine, but muddying his message by forcing him into all these insane situations is another thing entirely. The point of Superman is that he always rises to any challenge he faces. He may struggle, he may falter but he always overcomes. MOS sells another message entirely. That even Superman can't win sometimes. Even Superman has to compromise. Keep your gifts a secret. Give into fear. Do what others tell you. There isn't always a way. Even Superman has to blink in the face of evil.

Superman is suppose to be an example, symbol of hope. He is everything we can be. If even the best of us has to be painted in shades of gray, what hope do we have?

But Superman won. He stopped Zod and his kryptonians. He saved those kids in the bus and those men at the oil rig and the soldiers in smallville and 7 billions humans. All in his first day at the job with no previous experience.

[Lexrules]

But Superman won. He stopped Zod and his kryptonians. He saved those kids in the bus and those men at the oil rig and the soldiers in smallville and 7 billions humans. All in his first day at the job with no previous experience.

He Killed Zod. All those other great things he did was over shadowed by the mistake they made him do that took him out of character and stopped him from being above all others. This is not 1940 anymore. Superman is a character geared for children, children where in the theater they saw Superman kill Zod instead of finding a better way.

You need to understand that. It simply sends the wrong message what the character stand for and means today.