BATGIRL #45: Preview/Discussion

[Confuzzled]

I am glad with the ending. Heroes being in relationships is fine but when each character has their own book with different styles it does not work. DickxBabs fans will have to wait a while before this relationship should be touched on again.

Yup, that's another thing. DickxBabs fans would never have "cross-pollinated" no matter how Dick was portrayed in this issue, simply because it is clear DickxBabs is not happening for the time being.

[ilovelocust]

Yup, that's another thing. DickxBabs fans would never have "cross-pollinated" no matter how Dick was portrayed in this issue, simply because it is clear DickxBabs is not happening for the time being.

Not everyone who reads these books are Dick x Babs fans,and the poor execution of the crossover means Dick fans and Babs fans aren't likely to see the other book as one they want to pick up and read.

[joybeans]

I'm not really sure they were trying to make people root for Luke in particular. Sympathise with him and Babs for sure, but only through highlighting Dick's immaturity, which as K. Jones mentioned, has always been a major aspect of his charm. It was more like "Look, dude is awesome and how can we not love him, but there are times when the very things that make us love him may prove to be very difficult for himself and the people closest to him".

Not really. His charm is more that he's grown in comic book time, from a kid superhero to one who can maintain mature relationships. He's playful and jokey, and may act impulsively, but he's also relatively well-adjusted. It's still out of character for him to suddenly drop everything he's doing in Spyral to pursue a relationship with Barbara, when he has much bigger priorities. The original reason why DickBabs worked under Dixon in the first place was because both of these characters had matured to the point where they appreciate each other for who they currently are.

[Godlike13]

That is true, while i gave it a pass, Dick's plan here didn't really make sense for Dick's life right now anymore then it did for Babs.

[Avi]

I am glad with the ending. Heroes being in relationships is fine but when each character has their own book with different styles it does not work. DickxBabs fans will have to wait a while before this relationship should be touched on again.

I am actually hoping that this Issue was meant to be a real break up (at least for a while), the marketing would then have been great too. DickBabs shipper's will read it because of the cover and people who want to see the ship gone will read it when they hear the others complain.



It was a look at Dick's flaws like many already mentioned, they might have gone overboard they might have not. It just really felt as if the wedding was forced into the background for the DickBabs chase, I wish we would have seen more of Alysia and Luke (and more of Dinah). The Issue was just lacking something in my opinion.

[Confuzzled]

Not everyone who reads these books are Dick x Babs fans...

I didn't say that at all. Just that those fans who are picking this up for DickxBabs won't continue the other character's book no matter what just because of how things have been set up.

...and the poor execution of the crossover means Dick fans and Babs fans aren't likely to see the other book as one they want to pick up and read.

Again as I mentioned in my previous posts, "post execution" is a subjective opinion. And "not likely to pick up and read" is just an estimation based on some assumptions of both fandoms.

Not really. His charm is more that he's grown in comic book time, from a kid superhero to one who can maintain mature relationships. He's playful and jokey, and may act impulsively, but he's also relatively well-adjusted. It's still out of character for him to suddenly drop everything he's doing in Spyral to pursue a relationship with Barbara, when he has much bigger priorities. The original reason why DickBabs worked under Dixon in the first place was because both of these characters had matured to the point where they appreciate each other for who they currently are.

If you are involved in a high stakes job and really, REALLY need to take a refreshing break, you are going to be upset if said refreshing break goes awfully awry. And since the stakes in the break are nowhere as high as in your job, then that is the one instance where you will assume you can affordto mess around and let off some steam. Your thought process may not be correct, but in this situation, it is likely to be natural.

[Grayson - The Dark Heir]

Guys... There's a difference between Grayson-Dick's immaturity and Batgirl-Dick immaturity. You don't take away someone's wedding ring. Seriously. It's not funny. You're seriously playing with part of someone's future. I doubt Dick would do that. Ever. Not even as Robin.

Play around with Babs? Bring her in close with a "shh?" Randomly show up to her friend's wedding through a window? Yeah, Dick would do that. That is okay. That is funny. That is immature, but it's not stupid.

"Dick had it coming" only because of this issue. If you'd only read Grayson #12, then the issue just has Batgirl helping Dick out after a sweet reunion scene. No Dick being a dick. That all happened in this book. So, no, Dick didn't have it coming until the writers chose to write the story out this way. I do agree that Dick had it coming in this story, though. That's why I was disappointed. Worst of all, we got this stuff being referenced in BRE #4, with Batgirl in basically the worst page of the issue.

I can understand Dick playing the villain here, but... yeah. I just didn't like the execution, pretty much. I mean, I didn't hate this issue. It was fine for what it is, and that's a shoujo comic. But it's not really the 9/10 everyone's giving it. 7-8.5/10 makes more sense to me, but whatever, bias and all that. Again, the Robin flashback was really cute, and I actually would've preferred that. And like, if the purpose was to show the whole Dick/Babs/Luke thing, then why not have all three suit up? Dick knew the old Batwing, he knows Lucius pretty damn well, too. If the endgame was to get DickBabs out of the way for Luke, then why not have Luke and Dick team up, and have Dick come to the conclusion that Luke really is a good guy and good for Babs, instead of just taking Babs word for it (not that Dick wouldn't believe her when she says that).

Just how I feel, not that you guys are wrong or anything. This is still a good book. Not for me, though.

[Confuzzled]

It just really felt as if the wedding was forced into the background for the DickBabs chase, I wish we would have seen more of Alysia and Luke (and more of Dinah). The Issue was just lacking something in my opinion.

Okay, now this is a good point you bring up. I agree that coinciding the crossover appearance with the wedding may not have been the best creative decision. Why put two hooks, especially two hooks that may get tangled with each other, in the same issue?

[dropkickjake]

At risk of bringing up a very tired discussion here, theres an interesting comparison to be made between this issue and BRE #1. In both issues, Dick came out not looking great. The difference is that in this issue his flaw make sense with his character, as opposed to the arrogance of "I'm like omg the best fighter ev-- ouch that hurt."

Its good to see Dick not be perfect her. Its good to see his flaws. Assuming the world will bend to his innocent desires, assuming everyone will understand his decisions, recklessness, in this case in regard to personal relationships, just a smidge of immaturity, thinking he can smile and charm his way out of anything. I like these as character flaws for him. Makes him a more rounded character, and I like that.

[dropkickjake]

Guys... There's a difference between Grayson-Dick's immaturity and Batgirl-Dick immaturity. You don't take away someone's wedding ring. Seriously. It's not funny. You're seriously playing with part of someone's future. I doubt Dick would do that. Ever. Not even as Robin.

Play around with Babs? Bring her in close with a "shh?" Randomly show up to her friend's wedding through a window? Yeah, Dick would do that. That is okay. That is funny. That is immature, but it's not stupid.

Yeah, taking the ring was a bit extreme. I can see it fitting into Dicks character though. The line "I was always gonna give it back," is key. In his mind, he was just having fun. He was never going to ruin the weeding because he wouldn't have made the chase last long enough to keep her away from it. He was sure of these things, confident in himself enough that failure to get her back in time seemed out of the question to him. The idea that he could have lost the ring never occurred to him.

But as you've said, its sorta a subjective thing. And I more than respect your choice and freedom to not like it. I do agree that the issue over all felt sorta 7.5/10. Not really because of the Dick-Babs stuff, that was the highlight for me, but that the rest felt sorta lacking.

[dan12456]

But Dick and Babs fandoms are familiar with the other character enough to know their essential traits even if they don't read the other character's book. Dick's behaviour is not going to shock Barbara fans all that much. And Dick fans just picking up Batgirl with this issue would have to accept the fact that Barbara has moved on. So they have that hurdle to cross if they want to continue with Batgirl regardless of how Dick behaved in this issue. You cannot tell for sure what will appeal or not appeal to fans. Some Grayson fans may actually be intrigued with Babs standing up to Dick and continue reading her book. While some may just like the fun tone of the book. So it isn't all cut and dried as you are making it out to be.

As a Dick fan the hurdle for me picking up more Batgirl isn't Barbara having moved on. I'm cool with that, don't really care if they are in a relationship (although we've had the "they've moved on" issue like 5 times now). The problem is that seeing my favourite character butchered like that makes me assume the writers of Batgirl are crap and don't bother putting effort into knowing the characters they are writing about. You could've had the same end plot without making Dick into an immature, callous villain and I might've ended up interested in their book.
(For those saying it's not out of character cause dick is immature read Joybeans, Grayson - The Dark Heir and Ilovelocust's posts above to see why you're wrong).

[Badou]

Luke is only in the picture to prevent Dick and Babs from being together. That's it. It's been the same thing since the start of the reboot. There is really no reason for Dick and Babs to not be together in this new universe so they have to find contrived reasons to keep them apart. Unless DC wants to actually put the two together then I still think it is best to make a clean break as the current dynamic doesn't really help either character.

[Lady Nightwing]

This would be around a 6/10 for me. The art was absolutely gorgeous, I seriously can't fault that at all. The wedding dress and the bridesmaids outfits were lovely. (Wedding issue - so that's a valid critique ) Little things like Black Canary performing the music were a really nice touch.

Some things I didn't like- Dick crashing the wedding for no reason at all. I'd love to know what excuse he fed Helena for that one. (Actually, there's a lack of plot in general throughout this issue) Also Dick seemed off. Maybe not out of character but with aspects of his character exaggerated a great deal. It sort of read a bit like bad fanfiction, to make Babs look perfect Dick had to look like a tool. I did like how Babs called him out on his behaviour and drew a line under their relationship. Hopefully, it sticks because it's been done to death and Luke seems perfectly charming.

I took a full mark off for Luke "bogus" comment in relation to Dick's death. He did in fact die after being tortured quite some time. It's a pet peeve of mine.

[Godlike13]

Luke is only in the picture to prevent Dick and Babs from being together. That's it. It's been the same thing since the start of the reboot. There is really no reason for Dick and Babs to not be together in this new universe so they have to find contrived reasons to keep them apart. Unless DC wants to actually put the two together then I still think it is best to make a clean break as the current dynamic doesn't really help either character.

DC doesn't want them together, but they don't want them apart either. They know they're a draw but also want them doing their own things. So it has become kind of an annual thing, putting them in an issue together pretty much just to tell us why they can't be together at this time. Even if we already know. This wasn't the worst one though.

I took a full mark off for Luke "bogus" comment in relation to Dick's death. He did in fact die after being tortured quite some time. It's a pet peeve of mine.

This is a good point. Dick is getting heat for hiding that he was alive, which is fair, and he should, but at the same time no one seems to remember what actually happen to him that lead up it.

[K. Jones]

Guys... There's a difference between Grayson-Dick's immaturity and Batgirl-Dick immaturity. You don't take away someone's wedding ring. Seriously. It's not funny. You're seriously playing with part of someone's future. I doubt Dick would do that. Ever. Not even as Robin.

Play around with Babs? Bring her in close with a "shh?" Randomly show up to her friend's wedding through a window? Yeah, Dick would do that. That is okay. That is funny. That is immature, but it's not stupid.

"Dick had it coming" only because of this issue. If you'd only read Grayson #12, then the issue just has Batgirl helping Dick out after a sweet reunion scene. No Dick being a dick. That all happened in this book. So, no, Dick didn't have it coming until the writers chose to write the story out this way. I do agree that Dick had it coming in this story, though. That's why I was disappointed. Worst of all, we got this stuff being referenced in BRE #4, with Batgirl in basically the worst page of the issue.

I can understand Dick playing the villain here, but... yeah. I just didn't like the execution, pretty much. I mean, I didn't hate this issue. It was fine for what it is, and that's a shoujo comic. But it's not really the 9/10 everyone's giving it. 7-8.5/10 makes more sense to me, but whatever, bias and all that. Again, the Robin flashback was really cute, and I actually would've preferred that. And like, if the purpose was to show the whole Dick/Babs/Luke thing, then why not have all three suit up? Dick knew the old Batwing, he knows Lucius pretty damn well, too. If the endgame was to get DickBabs out of the way for Luke, then why not have Luke and Dick team up, and have Dick come to the conclusion that Luke really is a good guy and good for Babs, instead of just taking Babs word for it (not that Dick wouldn't believe her when she says that).

Just how I feel, not that you guys are wrong or anything. This is still a good book. Not for me, though.

Actually his impishness with the wedding ring really tracked with me as something the Robin we got in Dixon's Year One and other flashbacks might very well do. He's a bit devil-may-care about that sort of stuff. His life is a high adventure. It's always been jumping out of buildings and out of planes and free falling and chasing. Meanwhile ... he went off to Titan around and Barbara you know, started dating an ex-cop Private Eye and ran for the New Jersey Senate.

Different strokes.