Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 80
  1. #46
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,025

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cheetah View Post
    Heracles being a murderer, pillager and rapist is also more in line with some stories in Greek mythology as well. Heracles has been described as everything from a foul-tempered brute who liked to show off his strength way too much at the expense of others to a noble, but flawed hero. Everyone has their own views on what these characters were really about. The Amazons being victims of patriarchal abuse has precedent in mythology if not actual history. As Razor Tiara said, you can make the Amazons sympathetic while still condoning their hatred of men.

    Edit: And it wasn't just 'the actions of a few'. Not only did Heracles have an army large enough to subdue the Amazons, but they had been the target of conquest campaigns by patriarchal cultures for years prior to that. Heracles' actions were just the straw that broke the camel's back.
    tell me which version of the Iliad have you read because im pretty sure he never raped anyone there. and again what version of the Iliad are you reading because in the greek one, they were one breasted warriors of legend rivaling sparta, who left their homes on a trip to forcibly get laid. they were met with resistance against patriarchal societies but were never outright victimized by them outside of refusing to except their matriarchy society.

    as far as i'm concerned, the entire worlds population of men should not be held accountable for the actions of herakles army and an unspecified number of patriarchies. at the end of the day, they are just as sexist for having that mindset. no type of hatred should be condoned by scapegoating, it's that type of mindset that led to the holocaust

    edit- in reference to heraklez connection to the amazons- the illiad depicts one of his labors from the gods was to take the gurdle from queen hypollita. thats a far cry for having an army rape all of her subjects before raping her just because she wouldn't submit to him. my point? this wouldn't be the first time a ww writer has been selective about how closly they want to follow the myth. azz is hardly the only one guilty of the trope
    Last edited by kidstandout; 08-18-2014 at 08:24 AM.

  2. #47
    Extraordinary Member Vanguard-01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    8,471

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    I haven't studied law so I'm far from an expert on what type of punishment would be appropriate for the Amazons that participated in the raids however, I don't think the crime of intentional murder should ever go unpunished. At the very least, perhaps Diana or Hippolyta could make those Amazons journey to Man's World and do something to help disabled men with things like shopping, bathing, cooking, or something along those lines?
    I'm no law student either. But the sex raids would definitely qualify as First Degree Murder. The Amazons went out in their boats with the express intention of finding a ship full of men, seducing them, and then murdering them. That is pre-meditated murder. No question. Punishments for First Degree Murder is typically either life in prison or the death penalty in countries that still have a death penalty.

    Also, it will be very difficult to track down exactly which ships the Amazons attacked over the years. Legally, it would be all but impossible to prove beyond reasonable doubt which ships lost their crews due to Amazon Raid and which ones lost their crews due to the thousand other things that can happen to a ship at sea. Seeking a legal punishment for the Amazons would be a legal nightmare. Better to let Diana, Hippolyta, and/or their own consciences decide their punishment.

    I don't see how making the raiders go around being nice to some men for a few years really balances the scales. How long should they do that? A year? Ten years? A thousand years? When have they earned enough "Brownie Points?"

    Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that they should do something to make up for what they've done, but community service seems a bit light.

    I think the Amazons can atone simply by becoming more like Perez's Amazons. They dedicate themselves to becoming protectors of the entire world. Something or someone invades the Earth? The Amazons ride out to help fight it. They dedicate themselves to pursuing enlightenment for themselves and for the world. They seek to better themselves and share their efforts with everyone else. They offer aid and comfort to those who are sick, injured, or in need of protection.

    That, to me, seems like enough. The Amazons did bad things. How best can they atone without dying or submitting to eternal imprisonment? By never repeating their crimes, and by helping to change the world so that no one else ever loses a loved one to the same senseless hate by which the Amazons themselves were once ruled.
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

  3. #48
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    21,078

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kidstandout View Post
    tell me which version of the Iliad have you read because im pretty sure he never raped anyone there. and again what version of the Iliad are you reading because in the greek one, they were one breasted warriors of legend rivaling sparta, who left their homes on a trip to forcibly get laid. they were met with resistance against patriarchal societies but were never outright victimized by them outside of refusing to except their matriarchy society.

    as far as i'm concerned, the entire worlds population of men should not be held accountable for the actions of herakles army and an unspecified number of patriarchies. at the end of the day, they are just as sexist for having that mindset. no type of hatred should be condoned by scapegoating, it's that type of mindset that led to the holocaust

    edit- in reference to heraklez connection to the amazons- the illiad depicts one of his labors from the gods was to take the gurdle from queen hypollita. thats a far cry for having an army rape all of her subjects before raping her just because she wouldn't submit to him. my point? this wouldn't be the first time a ww writer has been selective about how closly they want to follow the myth. azz is hardly the only one guilty of the trope
    1. My mistake. What I meant to say was while there aren't stories that outright depict Heracles as a rapist, there have been stories were he was shown as being the facilitator to others being raped. One example is King Priam of Troy's sister who was sold to his friend Telemon after they sacked Troy. Another is when during his journey to The Amazons to get the girdle, Theseus his companion, abducts Hippolyta (this is usually seen in tales that focus on Theseus rather than Heracles). In another version Heracles abducts her himself and giver her to Theseus as spoils of war. A Midsummer's Nigh Dream and Cantebury Tales also tell of how Theseus 'wooed Hippolyta with his sword'. The Greeks never had a problem with depicting their heroes as abducters and rapists and some stories did show just how tough women (and even some men) had it back then. Of course, this depends on which version of which story you read.

    2. You're right that what the Amazons did was scapegoating and this is acknowledged within the stories. Yes we are meant to sympathise with the Amazons, but also disagree with their attitudes towards men. hence, their choosing to forgive Heracles and attempt to rejoin the reconnect with the rest of the world.

  4. #49
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,025

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cheetah View Post
    1. My mistake. What I meant to say was while there aren't stories that outright depict Heracles as a rapist, there have been stories were he was shown as being the facilitator to others being raped. One example is King Priam of Troy's sister who was sold to his friend Telemon after they sacked Troy. Another is when during his journey to The Amazons to get the girdle, Theseus his companion, abducts Hippolyta (this is usually seen in tales that focus on Theseus rather than Heracles). In another version Heracles abducts her himself and giver her to Theseus as spoils of war. A Midsummer's Nigh Dream and Cantebury Tales also tell of how Theseus 'wooed Hippolyta with his sword'. The Greeks never had a problem with depicting their heroes as abducters and rapists and some stories did show just how tough women (and even some men) had it back then. Of course, this depends on which version of which story you read.

    2. You're right that what the Amazons did was scapegoating and this is acknowledged within the stories. Yes we are meant to sympathise with the Amazons, but also disagree with their attitudes towards men. hence, their choosing to forgive Heracles and attempt to rejoin the reconnect with the rest of the world.
    1 still though, what azz did to the amazons is no different from what perez did to Herakles. both of them deviate too far

    2 fair enough

  5. #50
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    2,926

    Default

    Without reading this entire thread, if I had to grade New 52's Hippolyta, she gets an "I" for incomplete. We just don't know that much about her, or at least she hasn't done a whole lot for me to make an opinion of her.

    Pre-New-52, she easily had a more eventful life. That doesn't make her more interesting, but at least she got to do a lot more.

  6. #51
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    2,911

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard-01 View Post
    1. The Amazons are not Stone Age. They're Bronze or Iron Age.

    2. They know how to make fire just fine.

    3. Hippolyta didn't "roll over" for Zeus. She fought him. For days, it would seem. Somewhere along the way, an attraction developed. I'm still wondering if Strife may have had something to do with what happened next. Or? Zeus in mythology successfully seduces just about everyone. It's quite possible it's a power of his to make this happen.

    4. Diana can't restore the dead to life. Anymore than the US Government can resurrect all those Native Americans we killed. Atrocities happen in history. They can't be undone. The only thing you can do is try to move forward. Diana's doing the only thing that can be done on this front.



    What do you consider a fair "punishment" for an immortal woman? Life in prison? Death? What punishment balances the scales in the long run? The answer is "nothing." Nothing will bring the men the Amazons killed back. Nothing is ultimately gained through vengeance.

    What can an immortal do to atone? The only thing they can really do is dedicate their immortal life to making up for the crime they committed. If Diana changes the Amazons and gets them to see that what they did was wrong? Then suddenly the Amazons can dedicate themselves to defending the world and trying to make it a better place. They can't bring those men back, but they can make their deaths mean something by learning from their mistakes and BECOMING the enlightened women we want to see them become.

    I highly doubt that Azz's run will end with the Amazons just going back to being a bunch of paranoid isolationists, sitting on their island and having nothing to do with the rest of the world. I think the plan is for Diana to lead the Amazons into recognizing the wrong they've done and dedicating themselves to the overall improvement of both themselves and the world.
    1) Big difference
    I mean come on they go from having a society of advanced science to probably being amazed at the light bulb.

    2) Did we see any of them ever make a fire? See my answer for 1.

    3) Zeus showed up in a cloak, carrying a sword and tried to kill her, Hypolita said as much. If that were all it took to court a woman I'd study swordsmanship.

    4) Well that's the point, the dead are dead, justice is for the living and to let them go on as before is not justice. Diana can tell them to stop but once she's back with the JL or having fun with Superman what's to stop them from doing it again?

    Again the reason I dropped the book was in a large part because of Azzarello's treatment of Hypolita and the Amazons and I'm really not sure I want to pick it up again after he goes. Anytime from now on I see the amazon's I just think of some guy doing the deadman's float and his body being picked apart by sharks because the amazon's were in heat that night.

  7. #52
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    2,911

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard-01 View Post
    I'm no law student either. But the sex raids would definitely qualify as First Degree Murder. The Amazons went out in their boats with the express intention of finding a ship full of men, seducing them, and then murdering them. That is pre-meditated murder. No question. Punishments for First Degree Murder is typically either life in prison or the death penalty in countries that still have a death penalty.

    Also, it will be very difficult to track down exactly which ships the Amazons attacked over the years. Legally, it would be all but impossible to prove beyond reasonable doubt which ships lost their crews due to Amazon Raid and which ones lost their crews due to the thousand other things that can happen to a ship at sea. Seeking a legal punishment for the Amazons would be a legal nightmare. Better to let Diana, Hippolyta, and/or their own consciences decide their punishment.

    I don't see how making the raiders go around being nice to some men for a few years really balances the scales. How long should they do that? A year? Ten years? A thousand years? When have they earned enough "Brownie Points?"

    Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that they should do something to make up for what they've done, but community service seems a bit light.

    I think the Amazons can atone simply by becoming more like Perez's Amazons. They dedicate themselves to becoming protectors of the entire world. Something or someone invades the Earth? The Amazons ride out to help fight it. They dedicate themselves to pursuing enlightenment for themselves and for the world. They seek to better themselves and share their efforts with everyone else. They offer aid and comfort to those who are sick, injured, or in need of protection.

    That, to me, seems like enough. The Amazons did bad things. How best can they atone without dying or submitting to eternal imprisonment? By never repeating their crimes, and by helping to change the world so that no one else ever loses a loved one to the same senseless hate by which the Amazons themselves were once ruled.
    I think as far as the law goes the amazon's can be charged with piracy on the high seas.

  8. #53
    Extraordinary Member Vanguard-01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    8,471

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    3) Zeus showed up in a cloak, carrying a sword and tried to kill her, Hypolita said as much. If that were all it took to court a woman I'd study swordsmanship.
    Are you the King of an entire pantheon of gods? Do you have a power and authority about you that allows you to seduce almost any woman upon whom you lay eyes?

    You are grossly oversimplifying what happened between Zeus and Hippolyta. It wasn't just that Zeus showed up and fought her that made Hippolyta fall for him. Zeus is a god. It's very possible that his power had an influence over Hippolyta. Or I'm not ruling out possible meddling from Strife, either.

    4) Well that's the point, the dead are dead, justice is for the living and to let them go on as before is not justice. Diana can tell them to stop but once she's back with the JL or having fun with Superman what's to stop them from doing it again?
    What's to stop them? Diana is their QUEEN. She has just decreed it to be illegal to go out on future raids. If any Amazon breaks that law? They'll be criminals and punished accordingly.

    Another thing that will stop them? Her name is WONDER WOMAN. She changes people's hearts. It's what she's best known for. She isn't just telling the Amazons they can't go raiding anymore. She's trying to show them that the raids were wrong to begin with. She is trying to show them that men aren't evil and don't deserve to be slaughtered like dogs. She is going to change their hearts and get them to stop doing the raids because they no longer WANT to go raiding anymore.

    God, that's like Wonder Woman 101 stuff, right there.

    Again the reason I dropped the book was in a large part because of Azzarello's treatment of Hypolita and the Amazons and I'm really not sure I want to pick it up again after he goes. Anytime from now on I see the amazon's I just think of some guy doing the deadman's float and his body being picked apart by sharks because the amazon's were in heat that night.
    First? The Amazons don't go into heat. They go out on the raids because it's what they need to do to keep their population going.

    Now the killing afterward? As I've said, that's totally unnecessary. Good thing Diana won't let that continue, isn't it? Good thing she's going to get the Amazons to recognize the wrong they've done. Good thing she's going to make them start to atone for what they've done.

    Second? We still have no idea how many of the Amazons participated in the raids. It may very well be a very small percentage of their population. I can assure you that any Amazon Diana's age or younger most definitely never participated in a raid. The Amazons do the raids "Three times a century." That's about every 33 years. Diana is in her mid-twenties in this story. Any Amazon in that age range hasn't gone on a raid because there isn't another raid scheduled for at least another ten years.

    We also have no idea how popular the raids have been with the Amazons. You make it sound like every Amazon gleefully awaits the next raid and cheers on the slaughter to come. We have no proof of that. For all we know, the average Amazon isn't even aware of the raids. Or if they are aware? They may be unaware of what exactly happens on the raids. And even if they ARE all aware of that? Then there's no proof at all that all the Amazons approved of the raids. It is something the Amazons felt they NEEDED to do. Not something they WANTED to do. Many Amazons may have written the raids off as a regrettable necessity. One they will be only too happy to see ended.

    Third? If you are so hard of heart that you can't forgive people for the mistakes they make, then I'm sorry but you're missing the whole point of what it means to be a Wonder Woman fan. Redemption is what she does.
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

  9. #54
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,944

    Default

    However why do they need to keep up their population they are immortal. We can't accepted with What Soule did since Azz doesn't pay attention to the runs. Why do they need to do it 3 time a century .

  10. #55
    Extraordinary Member Vanguard-01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    8,471

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    However why do they need to keep up their population they are immortal. We can't accepted with What Soule did since Azz doesn't pay attention to the runs. Why do they need to do it 3 time a century .
    Soule was allowed to explore a bunch of stuff about Diana that previously only Azz was allowed to touch. He got to use God Mode. He got to define some of Diana's God of War powers and to explain what it means for her to be the God of War.

    It's very possible that Azz clued Soule into some of the stuff he was working on in his run. If that's true, then Soule saying that Doom's Doorway is still a thing is as close to canon as we're going to get.

    Other than that? We don't know. Azz hasn't yet revealed what may be reducing the Amazon's population. Maybe he'll mention Doom's Doorway soon. Or maybe he'll mention something else that would explain why the Amazons need to replenish their ranks.

    One thing is certain: if the Amazons hate men so much and fear being discovered by them so much, and they didn't NEED to go out and replenish their ranks? Then they wouldn't go out and do it. If they are immortal and they have nothing really going on that's causing them to lose people, then they'd have no reason at all to want to go out and make more Amazons. They certainly wouldn't feel the need to go out and do something they find distasteful unless it were absolutely necessary.

    We've got two more issues of Azz's book, plus Diana's origin story in Secret Origins still to come. If Azz doesn't offer an answer to this question of yours by that time? Then that's another very big black mark against the quality of his run.
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

  11. #56
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    2,911

    Default

    You're speculating quite a bit here, I'm going on what I've read in the comics.

    Hard heart? Perhaps I am. I don't think of rape and murder as a mistake. Maybe I shouldn't think of films like Titanic and picture innocent people drowning. As to redemption this episode of the Twilight Zone would be appropriate http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0734582/, with the amazon's each going through it if not for eternity then for each one of the men they've killed. At the very least a man hating survivor of one of the attacks would make a good villain, just so I know that DC won't sweep this under the rug in a few issues of a new writing team. It'd be great if Dr. Psycho was the survivor and in that way resurrected as a foe for Diana.

    I never thought anyone could make the amazons look worse than Amazon's Attack and Azzarello proved me wrong. Gail Simone managed to pull them out a bit after that but he stuffed them back into the garbage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard-01 View Post
    Are you the King of an entire pantheon of gods? Do you have a power and authority about you that allows you to seduce almost any woman upon whom you lay eyes?

    You are grossly oversimplifying what happened between Zeus and Hippolyta. It wasn't just that Zeus showed up and fought her that made Hippolyta fall for him. Zeus is a god. It's very possible that his power had an influence over Hippolyta. Or I'm not ruling out possible meddling from Strife, either.



    What's to stop them? Diana is their QUEEN. She has just decreed it to be illegal to go out on future raids. If any Amazon breaks that law? They'll be criminals and punished accordingly.

    Another thing that will stop them? Her name is WONDER WOMAN. She changes people's hearts. It's what she's best known for. She isn't just telling the Amazons they can't go raiding anymore. She's trying to show them that the raids were wrong to begin with. She is trying to show them that men aren't evil and don't deserve to be slaughtered like dogs. She is going to change their hearts and get them to stop doing the raids because they no longer WANT to go raiding anymore.

    God, that's like Wonder Woman 101 stuff, right there.



    First? The Amazons don't go into heat. They go out on the raids because it's what they need to do to keep their population going.

    Now the killing afterward? As I've said, that's totally unnecessary. Good thing Diana won't let that continue, isn't it? Good thing she's going to get the Amazons to recognize the wrong they've done. Good thing she's going to make them start to atone for what they've done.

    Second? We still have no idea how many of the Amazons participated in the raids. It may very well be a very small percentage of their population. I can assure you that any Amazon Diana's age or younger most definitely never participated in a raid. The Amazons do the raids "Three times a century." That's about every 33 years. Diana is in her mid-twenties in this story. Any Amazon in that age range hasn't gone on a raid because there isn't another raid scheduled for at least another ten years.

    We also have no idea how popular the raids have been with the Amazons. You make it sound like every Amazon gleefully awaits the next raid and cheers on the slaughter to come. We have no proof of that. For all we know, the average Amazon isn't even aware of the raids. Or if they are aware? They may be unaware of what exactly happens on the raids. And even if they ARE all aware of that? Then there's no proof at all that all the Amazons approved of the raids. It is something the Amazons felt they NEEDED to do. Not something they WANTED to do. Many Amazons may have written the raids off as a regrettable necessity. One they will be only too happy to see ended.

    Third? If you are so hard of heart that you can't forgive people for the mistakes they make, then I'm sorry but you're missing the whole point of what it means to be a Wonder Woman fan. Redemption is what she does.

  12. #57
    Extraordinary Member Vanguard-01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    8,471

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    You're speculating quite a bit here, I'm going on what I've read in the comics.

    Hard heart? Perhaps I am. I don't think of rape and murder as a mistake. Maybe I shouldn't think of films like Titanic and picture innocent people drowning. As to redemption this episode of the Twilight Zone would be appropriate http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0734582/, with the amazon's each going through it if not for eternity then for each one of the men they've killed. At the very least a man hating survivor of one of the attacks would make a good villain, just so I know that DC won't sweep this under the rug in a few issues of a new writing team. It'd be great if Dr. Psycho was the survivor and in that way resurrected as a foe for Diana.

    I never thought anyone could make the amazons look worse than Amazon's Attack and Azzarello proved me wrong. Gail Simone managed to pull them out a bit after that but he stuffed them back into the garbage.
    Wow.

    So eternal suffering for doing something the Amazons believed was necessary for their survival, huh?

    Yeah, we have nothing more to discuss.

    Oh, and by the way? Hard hearts have no place with anyone who claims to love Diana or to believe in what she stands for.
    Last edited by Vanguard-01; 08-18-2014 at 02:53 PM.
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

  13. #58
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    2,911

    Default

    Ask their victims how they feel about the amazons. There is a difference between a hard heart and a heart seeking justice. I'd think someone who believe in Wonder Woman would understand that. I don't think just forbidding someone to seek out victims to rape and murder anymore is justice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard-01 View Post
    Wow.

    So eternal suffering for doing something the Amazons believed was necessary for their survival, huh?

    Yeah, we have nothing more to discuss.

    Oh, and by the way? Hard hearts have no place with anyone who claims to love Diana or to believe in what she stands for.

  14. #59
    Extraordinary Member Vanguard-01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    8,471

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    Ask their victims how they feel about the amazons. There is a difference between a hard heart and a heart seeking justice. I'd think someone who believe in Wonder Woman would understand that. I don't think just forbidding someone to seek out victims to rape and murder anymore is justice.
    Diana isn't as concerned about justice as Superman or Batman. She cares about people and changing hearts and minds for the better. Did you read the Hiketeia? Diana sheltered a fugitive from the law. She fought Batman and expressed no intent to hand her over to the police for her crimes.

    Did you, by any chance, catch that part where I talked about Diana encouraging the Amazons to ATONE for what they did through service to the world? The only other options are A) Let the Amazons get away with what they did, or B) Turn all the Amazons over to the local authorities and watch her entire race either get life in prison, or execution for their crimes. Of these three options, which one seems most conducive to future stories to you?
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

  15. #60
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,944

    Default

    I was wondering how much of you guys feel about pre 52 Hippoltya's relationship with Phillpus? Should it be a Item.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •