Hippolyta: Pre New 52 or Post New 52

[Mark]

No, I didn't get that issue. When did it happen?

How do you atone for murder? I can understand your feeling for the amazons, but I think that you could spare a sliver of your heart for the mothers, sons, daughters, wives and sisters of the men murdered. Men who's only crime was that they were male. Sure it's all well and good for the amazon's to say 'oops, we were wrong, sorry' but that won't bring back the dead or dry the tears. That won't give a wife an income that might have been all that supported her and her family. That won't give a sister back her beloved brother. Where is your and Diana's compassion for that suffering and how exactly are the amazon's supposed to atone for it? And can they really feel regret? I don't think anyone can teach that and without that any atonement is worthless. Call me heartless if you wish, but while I do believe in compassion and redemption I also believe that justice should involve more. Azzarello has so far with this story line cast the amazons as murders and rapist, I guess it was a step up from Amazon's Attack where they were just murders, but still showcasing them as criminal. I hope that he has some plan of punishement or if you wish redemption, but I don't think there will be. I think he did this just to show Diana in a better light and I don't agree with that sort of storyline.

To tell you the truth between this and amazon's attack I think DC flat out just doesn't like the concept of amazons a group. They might like Diana alone, but they don't seem to like the amazons as a race or concept.

Diana isn't as concerned about justice as Superman or Batman. She cares about people and changing hearts and minds for the better. Did you read the Hiketeia? Diana sheltered a fugitive from the law. She fought Batman and expressed no intent to hand her over to the police for her crimes.

Did you, by any chance, catch that part where I talked about Diana encouraging the Amazons to ATONE for what they did through service to the world? The only other options are A) Let the Amazons get away with what they did, or B) Turn all the Amazons over to the local authorities and watch her entire race either get life in prison, or execution for their crimes. Of these three options, which one seems most conducive to future stories to you?

[Vanguard-01]

No, I didn't get that issue. When did it happen?

The Hiketeia was a standalone graphic novel written by Greg Rucka. Check your public library. There's a very good chance they'll have it. Awesome story.

How do you atone for murder? I can understand your feeling for the amazons, but I think that you could spare a sliver of your heart for the mothers, sons, daughters, wives and sisters of the men murdered. Men who's only crime was that they were male. Sure it's all well and good for the amazon's to say 'oops, we were wrong, sorry' but that won't bring back the dead or dry the tears.

You atone for murder by dedicating your life to making the world a place where murder doesn't happen anymore.

I do feel for the families of the victims. I also know that the last raid was 20+ years ago. By now those families have moved on in one way or another. They also, by the way, don't know that their loved ones were murdered. Their bodies were never found. They likely were reported lost at sea. The families very likely believe that their loved ones were taken from them by a storm or a rogue wave or any of a thousand other things that can happen to you when you become a sailor.

And once again, you oversimplify. The Amazons have to do more than just say "Whoops! Sorry!" in order to atone. The fact that you persist in believing that that's what I'm advocating makes me wonder if you're being deliberately obtuse in order to admit that I have a point. The Amazons need to atone. They need to find ways to give back to the world in some meaningful way. They can't bring back the dead, and killing themselves or submitting to eternal incarceration won't actually make up for anything.

And can they really feel regret?

Are the Amazons psychopaths? No? Then they can feel regret.

Dessa has already shown regret for attempting to kill Zeke. To the point where she was willing to commit suicide rather than live with her shame. Aleka just died fighting to protect Zola and Zeke.

The Amazons aren't feeling more regret right now, because Diana hasn't yet helped them to see that they should regret what they have done.

And once again? We have no idea how many Amazons actually took part in the raids, so you're pretty much demanding blood vengeance against an entire group, with no idea how many of them are actually responsible.

I don't think anyone can teach that and without that any atonement is worthless. Call me heartless if you wish, but while I do believe in compassion and redemption I also believe that justice should involve more.

Diana has redeemed supervillains before. Redeeming a bunch of women who did terrible things in the interest of protecting their people is child's play for her.

The Amazons didn't do this for fun, or because they could. They did it because they were convinced it was the only way to preserve their people.

To tell you the truth between this and amazon's attack I think DC flat out just doesn't like the concept of amazons a group. They might like Diana alone, but they don't seem to like the amazons as a race or concept.

Believe what you want to believe. The truth will out.

[Mark]

One last question then, how does a bronze age group of outcast make the world a better place? It's not like they can go out into the world spreading peace and love with advanced technology as the amazons after Amazons Attack could have. I'm not being deliberately obtuse, I just don't see how atonement or redemption is going to happen. And no matter why the amazons did what they did it was still rape and murder.

[Vanguard-01]

One last question then, how does a bronze age group of outcast make the world a better place? It's not like they can go out into the world spreading peace and love with advanced technology as the amazons after Amazons Attack could have. I'm not being deliberately obtuse, I just don't see how atonement or redemption is going to happen. And no matter why the amazons did what they did it was still rape and murder.

First? Once again? Not rape. A bunch of sailors who have been at sea for weeks or months are HIGHLY unlikely to say "No" to a boatload of gorgeous naked women. Show me one panel where a single Amazon made some guy have sex with her by holding a blade to his throat, and then you've got a case. Until then? No rape. Just a bunch of horny sailors having an orgy with a bevy of beautiful women.

Second? How can the Amazons make the world a better place? For one thing, they don't have to remain stuck in the Bronze Age. Now that the Manazons have returned to the island, they can begin building advanced technology on Paradise Island. The Amazons may be about to jump ahead in technology very quickly. So, yeah. Advanced Amazon science? Still more than possible.

Even without that? The Amazons can make the world a better place by pursuing enlightenment. By deliberately turning their backs on the horrors they did in the past, and striving to better themselves. They can then SHARE their newfound enlightenment with the world. They can also make sure the world has a CHANCE to become a better place by dedicating themselves to its defense. Darkseid invades again? The Amazons ride out to oppose his army. Many of them will die defending the world. Including, very likely, a bunch of the women who were part of the sex raids. You want them dead? Eventually they'll likely fall in the defense of the world anyway. There's tons of ways the Amazons can be of value to the world.

Third? If Old Testament, "An eye for an eye. A tooth for a tooth" style justice is the only thing that does it for you, then Wonder Woman is not the book for you. That has never been part of Diana's mythos. If that's what you're looking for, I'd recommend sticking to Batman.

[Vanguard-01]

Also? If you doubt my words about Dessa.

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[Agent Z]

First? Once again? Not rape. A bunch of sailors who have been at sea for weeks or months are HIGHLY unlikely to say "No" to a boatload of gorgeous naked women. Show me one panel where a single Amazon made some guy have sex with her by holding a blade to his throat, and then you've got a case. Until then? No rape. Just a bunch of horny sailors having an orgy with a bevy of beautiful women.

Um sorry, Vanguard but I feel i have to back Mark on this one here. Sure we never actually see an Amazon forcing herself onto a male, however that is how it is described by Hapheastus. Furthermore, it is unrealistic to say the least to assume that just because he has been out at sea for years a sailor would drop his pants at the first site of a hot naked woman who just appeared out of nowhere. You're igniring the men who would be married, in committed relationships, gay or who would actually be suspicious of where the hell these women came from. Assuming of course they are women. From what we've seen of these Amazons I don't think they'd take no for an answer.

[Mark]

If you want to be wedded to the rehabilitative model fine, but saying that it wasn't rape? That's just giving too much. If justice for the dead means nothing then ok, but I think that the amazons are getting off very lightly indeed if they don't suffer any punishment at all and I don't thin community service qualifies. And Darksied attacks... Well they'd have to fight him anyway, it's their world too after all.

Still it's amazing how much I see this in comics. Zatanna and the JL break the law and alter Catwoman and other's minds and their justice is... Nothing. The Illuminati over at marvel murder the Great Society and blow up a world and their justice is... I don't know yet but I'll be surprised if it is anything consequential. Tony Stark clones Thor and that clone kills someone and again justice is absent. It seems all you really need to escape justice in comics is to be an important character in a series and you skip away from anything with no real consequences outside of a guilty conscience.

First? Once again? Not rape. A bunch of sailors who have been at sea for weeks or months are HIGHLY unlikely to say "No" to a boatload of gorgeous naked women. Show me one panel where a single Amazon made some guy have sex with her by holding a blade to his throat, and then you've got a case. Until then? No rape. Just a bunch of horny sailors having an orgy with a bevy of beautiful women.

Second? How can the Amazons make the world a better place? For one thing, they don't have to remain stuck in the Bronze Age. Now that the Manazons have returned to the island, they can begin building advanced technology on Paradise Island. The Amazons may be about to jump ahead in technology very quickly. So, yeah. Advanced Amazon science? Still more than possible.

Even without that? The Amazons can make the world a better place by pursuing enlightenment. By deliberately turning their backs on the horrors they did in the past, and striving to better themselves. They can then SHARE their newfound enlightenment with the world. They can also make sure the world has a CHANCE to become a better place by dedicating themselves to its defense. Darkseid invades again? The Amazons ride out to oppose his army. Many of them will die defending the world. Including, very likely, a bunch of the women who were part of the sex raids. You want them dead? Eventually they'll likely fall in the defense of the world anyway. There's tons of ways the Amazons can be of value to the world.

Third? If Old Testament, "An eye for an eye. A tooth for a tooth" style justice is the only thing that does it for you, then Wonder Woman is not the book for you. That has never been part of Diana's mythos. If that's what you're looking for, I'd recommend sticking to Batman.

[Vanguard-01]

If you want to be wedded to the true spirit of Wonder Woman and her books fine,

Fixed it for you.

And yes. I do.

but saying that it wasn't rape? That's just giving too much.

Show me one image of an Amazon holding a blade on some guy as she mounts him, or it didn't happen.

If justice for the dead means nothing then ok, but I think that the amazons are getting off very lightly indeed if they don't suffer any punishment at all and I don't thin community service qualifies.

The families of those men who have died have no idea that their loved ones were actually killed by Amazons. They've had at least twenty years to cope with their loss. Now, you want to rip their wounds open all over again by revealing that they were actually killed by Wonder Woman's people?

And really? "Community service?" Once again, you oversimplify. Yeah, I'm really advocating that the Amazons should just pick up garbage on the side of the street for a few months or years.

I'm talking about the Amazons committing their ETERNAL LIVES to the defense and betterment of the world. I'm talking about them standing ready to fight and die to protect the people they once victimized. I'm talking about them giving aid and comfort to the sick and the helpless. I'm talking about them working tirelessly to try to create a world where senseless bloodshed is a thing of the past. I'm talking about paying a debt to the world FOREVER.

But, sure. Go ahead and reduce it down to picking up some garbage every once in a while.

And Darksied attacks... Well they'd have to fight him anyway, it's their world too after all.

Funny. They didn't lift a finger the last time he attacked.

Still it's amazing how much I see this in comics. Zatanna and the JL break the law and alter Catwoman and other's minds and their justice is... Nothing. The Illuminati over at marvel murder the Great Society and blow up a world and their justice is... I don't know yet but I'll be surprised if it is anything consequential. Tony Stark clones Thor and that clone kills someone and again justice is absent. It seems all you really need to escape justice in comics is to be an important character in a series and you skip away from anything with no real consequences outside of a guilty conscience.

Can't say much about the Illuminati thing. I haven't touched a Marvel comic since Dark Reign got started.

Zatanna and the JL mindwiping Catwoman? Is there an actual law against mindwiping people? If not, then it's one of those annoying legal gray areas where the law doesn't know what to do in this situation.

And this argument doesn't work for the Amazons. They AREN'T major, important characters. Heck, in three years, we only know like three of their names, not counting Diana herself. Diana herself had no involvement in the raids, and put a stop to them the second she had the opportunity, so she has no reason to feel guilty.

[Mark]

First off putting words in someones post is very rude. Don't do it again.

Second I still don't know what the amazons can do to make up for what they've done, which you seem to think is no more serious than jaywalking. Seriously? A mans death doesn't matter because it happened a long time ago and no one really knows that it happened? Even for stretching the point that's stretching the point. And yes, there are laws against what Z and the rest of them did. The Model Penal Code lays out specific laws against kidnapping, assault and battery classifying them as felonies and since they took Catwoman out of the country not only do kidnapping laws apply but so laws against human trafficking.

I don't think that Diana has a reason to feel guilty, I do think that the amazons are escaping justice for piracy on the high seas. You want to give them all the breaks and wrap them in a nice warm blanket, send them to a corner with the order to think about what they've done ok, but I don't agree with that.

Fixed it for you.

And yes. I do.



Show me one image of an Amazon holding a blade on some guy as she mounts him, or it didn't happen.



The families of those men who have died have no idea that their loved ones were actually killed by Amazons. They've had at least twenty years to cope with their loss. Now, you want to rip their wounds open all over again by revealing that they were actually killed by Wonder Woman's people?

And really? "Community service?" Once again, you oversimplify. Yeah, I'm really advocating that the Amazons should just pick up garbage on the side of the street for a few months or years.

I'm talking about the Amazons committing their ETERNAL LIVES to the defense and betterment of the world. I'm talking about them standing ready to fight and die to protect the people they once victimized. I'm talking about them giving aid and comfort to the sick and the helpless. I'm talking about them working tirelessly to try to create a world where senseless bloodshed is a thing of the past. I'm talking about paying a debt to the world FOREVER.

But, sure. Go ahead and reduce it down to picking up some garbage every once in a while.



Funny. They didn't lift a finger the last time he attacked.



Can't say much about the Illuminati thing. I haven't touched a Marvel comic since Dark Reign got started.

Zatanna and the JL mindwiping Catwoman? Is there an actual law against mindwiping people? If not, then it's one of those annoying legal gray areas where the law doesn't know what to do in this situation.

And this argument doesn't work for the Amazons. They AREN'T major, important characters. Heck, in three years, we only know like three of their names, not counting Diana herself. Diana herself had no involvement in the raids, and put a stop to them the second she had the opportunity, so she has no reason to feel guilty.

[Vanguard-01]

First off putting words in someones post is very rude. Don't do it again.

It's not against forum rules. And you don't get to tell me what I can and can't do, unless I actually AM breaking a forum rule.

Second I still don't know what the amazons can do to make up for what they've done, which you seem to think is no more serious than jaywalking.

Where did I say anything like that?

I said the Amazons aren't bloodthirsty monsters. I said that immortal beings can't exactly be treated like normal criminals. I said that Wonder Woman cares more about changing hearts and minds than she does about feeding the bloodthirsty desires of others. I said that ripping open old wounds doesn't help ANYONE heal. I said NOTHING about murder being akin to jaywalking.

Seriously? A mans death doesn't matter because it happened a long time ago and no one really knows that it happened?

It matters, but there is more than one kind of justice in the world, and ripping open old wounds doesn't help anyone.

And yes, there are laws against what Z and the rest of them did. The Model Penal Code lays out specific laws against kidnapping, assault and battery classifying them as felonies and since they took Catwoman out of the country not only do kidnapping laws apply but so laws against human trafficking.

Hm. Good thing that whole story never happened anymore.

I don't think that Diana has a reason to feel guilty, I do think that the amazons are escaping justice for piracy on the high seas. You want to give them all the breaks and wrap them in a nice warm blanket, send them to a corner with the order to think about what they've done ok, but I don't agree with that.

First? The story isn't even over yet. For all you know, every Amazon over the age of 33 is going to die in the final battle with the First Born. There, there's your bloody retribution. Happy now?

"Give them all the breaks and wrap them in a blanket?" WHAT?? I said they will be expected to spend ETERNITY making up for what they've done through service to the ENTIRE WORLD!

[Mark]

I'm not the one who's so desperate to make a point he's using other peoples posts to do it. Too bad you can't come up with your words and have to use mine.

It's not against forum rules. And you don't get to tell me what I can and can't do, unless I actually AM breaking a forum rule.



Where did I say anything like that?

I said the Amazons aren't bloodthirsty monsters. I said that immortal beings can't exactly be treated like normal criminals. I said that Wonder Woman cares more about changing hearts and minds than she does about feeding the bloodthirsty desires of others. I said that ripping open old wounds doesn't help ANYONE heal. I said NOTHING about murder being akin to jaywalking.



It matters, but there is more than one kind of justice in the world, and ripping open old wounds doesn't help anyone.



Hm. Good thing that whole story never happened anymore.



First? The story isn't even over yet. For all you know, every Amazon over the age of 33 is going to die in the final battle with the First Born. There, there's your bloody retribution. Happy now?

"Give them all the breaks and wrap them in a blanket?" WHAT?? I said they will be expected to spend ETERNITY making up for what they've done through service to the ENTIRE WORLD!

Wow. You're really campaigning hard for the title of Hyperbole King, aren't you?

[Vanguard-01]

I'm not the one who's so desperate to make a point he's using other peoples posts to do it. Too bad you can't come up with your words and have to use mine.

I used a whole HELL of a lot of my own words in this amusing little back-and-forth. You ignored, twisted, and distorted most of them because they hurt your argument.

Either way, it's plainly obvious that you have nothing more to say to me that's of any interest to me. Bye, now!

[Mark]

I used a whole HELL of a lot of my own words in this amusing little back-and-forth. You ignored, twisted, and distorted most of them because they hurt your argument.

Either way, it's plainly obvious that you have nothing more to say to me that's of any interest to me. Bye, now!

I didn't distort anything, you did. You'll defend the amazons to the last and I can understand that. So ok, have the last word.

[Agent Z]

I decided to revive this thread now that Azz's run is over. How do you guys think the New 52 relaunch has served Hippolyta's character.

[numberthirty]

No preference. Each version makes for pretty interesting reading.