Discussion: Grayson #13

[Avi]

Oh, super important question. What is with the three lines on Tiger's forehead?

I searched for a meaning a while ago and the best thing I could find was that

"First, a vertical axis, representing man, the body, and our upright posture, which is unique in the animal kingdom. The vertical line symbolizes the path from earth to heaven and the realm of spirit, symbolizing the dual nature of man, who embodies the spiritual and the temporal. The vertical axis equates directly to the human spine and to the tree of life, as well as to the axis mundi, the great pole around which the constellations of the zodiac revolve. These seemingly disparate ideas share a common idea- they link the earth and heavens. Thus is the concept of the connection between earth and heaven established- and also the divinity of man, who alone is built on this axis."

which would work because of his name, but really I have no clue why there are three lines. Perhaps it is supposed to be a claw wound and he got his name from that, a tribal/courage tattoo or it's supposed to be symbolizing the stripes of a tiger?


I wonder what the poem at the end is foreshadowing, from the interpretation's I have read it sounds way too positive to be brought in association with Nazi's but it could also only be a way to justify that they named themselves the Eternal Circle, like Tim and Dick mentioned.

[Dzetoun]

Tiger, Helena, Tiger Shark, Midnighter, God Garden, Gardener.... Lot's of mythology here. But it's lots of Dick Grayson mythology. It's a real little corner they've built for themselves here - this is even the Tim Drake who played "sidekick/partner" to Dickbats far more than it's the Teen Titans one.

And even with a quote from Percy Shelley to play off the Nightwing legend from Grayson Annual 2.

[HsssH]

Really sad Midnighter is just some generic ally now. He could have made for a much better villain, but I guess they wouldn't want to do that to someone they gave a solo book to. Oh well.

Midnighter is not a villain and was never intended to be one. Would be weird "character development" for him to turn into one.

[Claude]

Midnighter is not a villain and was never intended to be one. Would be weird "character development" for him to turn into one.

He wasn't a villain, but he was certainly an antagonist in his "Grayson" appearances up until now - before they became more buddy-buddy in the "Midnighter" title in a way that pays off here.

I'd quite like them to do more with them on opposite sides, tbh, especially now they've had a bit of Ally Time.




Also, what're people's bets at this point - Tim and Dick are both here rather pointedly shown not recognising Agent Zero's face, and realising for the first time that she's been a presence in Batman and Dick's careers right from the start.... So, did they not meet her in Batman Incorporated any more, or have they just been Spyralled into not remembering?

Be interesting to see who Damian thinks shot Talia in the head.

[HsssH]

They sorta became buddies when they attempted to retrieved Manhunter's brain.

As for Damian, after reading this weeks SOB I don't think that he particularly cares who shot Talia.

[DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy]

I can understand that view between Tim & Dick. There is a lot of symbolism here and the Court of Owls look to be making a return in a big way.

[K. Jones]

He wasn't a villain, but he was certainly an antagonist in his "Grayson" appearances up until now - before they became more buddy-buddy in the "Midnighter" title in a way that pays off here.

I'd quite like them to do more with them on opposite sides, tbh, especially now they've had a bit of Ally Time.




Also, what're people's bets at this point - Tim and Dick are both here rather pointedly shown not recognising Agent Zero's face, and realising for the first time that she's been a presence in Batman and Dick's careers right from the start.... So, did they not meet her in Batman Incorporated any more, or have they just been Spyralled into not remembering?

Be interesting to see who Damian thinks shot Talia in the head.

Oh, Spyralled to be sure, right? I mean why else would she be coming up in their web-searches as "Luka Netz" and not Kathy Kane, the name we all know her by, right? And Incorporated was too recent and far too amended for the New 52 to be retconned so soon. And that was key - Dick recognized her. Almost. Anyway we're dealing with someone for whom vanishing from all eyes has been standard practice, who can dog the world's greatest detective with ease, and uses mind control and facial trickery on the regular. If that name had come up "Kathy Kane", well, Dick wouldn't have to hunt too much for identification information anymore, would he?

But perhaps more importantly ... she said "my how you've grown", indicating that she's been watching him from the shadows for some time now. And now we see that holy crap has she ever!

[HellHere]

I wonder what the poem at the end is foreshadowing, from the interpretation's I have read it sounds way too positive to be brought in association with Nazi's but it could also only be a way to justify that they named themselves the Eternal Circle, like Tim and Dick mentioned.

The poem is The Cloud by Percy Bysshe Shelley. It's about the eternal motion of nature. So playing into the oroborous theme.

I like how they start the book off with a Mary Shelley theme and end with her husband.

I really don't think Luka Netz is Kathy Kane now. Especially since she's set spiders on them while they're in the Nazi mansion. In BR:E Helena says they're using Agent 0's journals and that they go back 25 years. Luka Netz looks way too young to have been working for 25 years. I think she's much more tied into Otto Netz. I have a bad feeling that Frau Netz might turn out to be the less bad sister. (And also all my theories about Otto Netz swapping bodies have come back to bite me, hard.)

[K. Jones]

The poem is The Cloud by Percy Bysshe Shelley. It's about the eternal motion of nature. So playing into the oroborous theme.

I like how they start the book off with a Mary Shelley theme and end with her husband.

I really don't think Luka Netz is Kathy Kane now. Especially since she's set spiders on them while they're in the Nazi mansion. In BR:E Helena says they're using Agent 0's journals and that they go back 25 years. Luka Netz looks way too young to have been working for 25 years. I think she's much more tied into Otto Netz. I have a bad feeling that Frau Netz might turn out to be the less bad sister. (And also all my theories about Otto Netz swapping bodies have come back to bite me, hard.)

Otto was originally called Agent Zero, so I imagine the notebook is his, not his mysterious daughter. He's the founder of Spyral so one imagines Matron and the rest are aware of his history to some extent, certainly must be "pretty aware" maybe of Elisabeth Netz's legacy membership. But Kathy was totally rife with spider imagery in the Morrison run, even essentially being the Ariadne helping the heroes escape the labyrinthine mazes of Dedalus and Leviathan.

I've been prepared ostensibly for the "Actually, Elisabeth is Kathy, and the Kathy lookalike is the other sister" beat for a while. Prior even to the Romulus & Remus statue in 11 (because with "twins" being a factor, the "actually this one was that one" angle ups in likelihood.) Anyhow, Kathy's not evil or a Nazi. She's just leading Dick (Perseus) deeper into the maze along some spider string.

[Avi]

The poem is The Cloud by Percy Bysshe Shelley. It's about the eternal motion of nature. So playing into the oroborous theme.

I like how they start the book off with a Mary Shelley theme and end with her husband.

I really don't think Luka Netz is Kathy Kane now. Especially since she's set spiders on them while they're in the Nazi mansion. In BR:E Helena says they're using Agent 0's journals and that they go back 25 years. Luka Netz looks way too young to have been working for 25 years. I think she's much more tied into Otto Netz. I have a bad feeling that Frau Netz might turn out to be the less bad sister. (And also all my theories about Otto Netz swapping bodies have come back to bite me, hard.)

Otto Netz had the same code name, it could have been his journal instead of Lukas. The original pitch of the series mentioned Kathy by name, which could still have changed but still hope to see a dynamic between them that is based on them knowing each other.
It could be true that Elisabeth is the minor problem for Dick (but perhaps not for the world?) she was the one giving him a way back to his family without seriously harming him after all. But Luka is way less creepy.

[Avi]

I've been prepared ostensibly for the "Actually, Elisabeth is Kathy, and the Kathy lookalike is the other sister" beat for a while. Prior even to the Romulus & Remus statue in 11 (because with "twins" being a factor, the "actually this one was that one" angle ups in likelihood.) Anyhow, Kathy's not evil or a Nazi. She's just leading Dick (Perseus) deeper into the maze along some spider string.

One is the other could actually be true, both of them are fond of Grayson...
I am also wondering who really works with the Eternal Circle, Agent 0 was alerted but Netz seemed pretty nervous about letting Tiger and Dick go to Berlin.

[Claude]

Oh, Spyralled to be sure, right? I mean why else would she be coming up in their web-searches as "Luka Netz" and not Kathy Kane, the name we all know her by, right? And Incorporated was too recent and far too amended for the New 52 to be retconned so soon. And that was key - Dick recognized her. Almost. Anyway we're dealing with someone for whom vanishing from all eyes has been standard practice, who can dog the world's greatest detective with ease, and uses mind control and facial trickery on the regular. If that name had come up "Kathy Kane", well, Dick wouldn't have to hunt too much for identification information anymore, would he?

But perhaps more importantly ... she said "my how you've grown", indicating that she's been watching him from the shadows for some time now. And now we see that holy crap has she ever!

Surely that "my how you've grown" was in reference to her time as Batwoman when Dick was a kid?


But I have to be honest, I was so close to assuming that Batman Incorporated's ending had been massaged away like so many pre-Flashpoint events - right up until the "oroborous" reference. That's not something you put in accidentally....

But I wonder if they'll reverse-engineer a retcon? Sure, the comics are basically ignoring the "official" timeline at this point - as today's Batgirl with it's talk of Lucius Fox knowing Dick as an excitable little kid proves again - but there really is no space for Kathy Kane in her conventional form. Unless her "Batwoman" was a retroactively induced memory, to cover her involvement throughout Batman's career....

[DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy]

Yeah Elisabeth was worried about them going to that place while "Luka" was patiently waiting like she has always been. I think she is Kathy Kane but she is so secretive that she uses other means as well as spyral tech to maintain that she doesn't exist like Mr. Minos was when she surprised and killed him.

[Badou]

Midnighter is not a villain and was never intended to be one. Would be weird "character development" for him to turn into one.

He can be a villain. He hates Spyral and Dick works for them. He was even willing to kill a baby to accomplish what he needed. So it is not out of the question. It's just he is worthless to Dick with what he is now. I could care less he has a Wildstorm "friend" to partner up with. They spent all that time developing him into this adversary for Dick for it all to mean nothing. I'd rather they would have spent that time developing an actual villain for Dick that they can build on. Menos was a disappointment in the end and all we have left is Kathy, but they aren't going to turn her into an actual villain, especially since she cares more about toying with Bruce than Dick.

[HellHere]

Frankenstein. The whole issue has calls to it (at least, to me it is, and this is probably mostly just me). From Netz in the lab with Dick doing her evil scientist thing (Elizabeth is the name of his sister in the book or fiancee in the film) and all the humans who've all been *cough* tinkered with (Ladytron, Midnighter, and Ninel pops up with a new blonde). They even end up in a mad scientist's lab in Germany with a human experiment.


@K Jones. I actually forgot that Otto was originally Agent 0. I was taking Luka reading The Cloud as a personal statement, but probably it's not.
I've been reading Dick as Theseus for a while (right down to his sticks). But I think he's out of the Minotaurs lair (and he's already got home to find his dad "dead") and is now and is maybe in another phase of his story. Possibly one where there's a fight for the throne/leadership of Spyral.
I have Helena cast as Ariadne (Arachne is the one with the spider associations), I admit. I don't think Luka wants him out of it at all, she wants him further in. But I do think Helena is softening up to him.

I had also been thinking more along the lines of Otto having set himself up as one of the girls, rather than them being the switcheroo. But I admit I tend to get a little wild with my theories for this book.


Also, for a second there when Ladytron showed up, I wondered what the hell Harper Row was doing in Grayson.

It's gone 2am though, so I apologise for the ramblings.