PREVIEW: Uncanny X-Men #600

[gantz_alien_killer]

this has to be the most ham-fisted clumsily portrayed try hard writing from bendis i have ever read. he has the subtly of a meteor striking the earth. i think ill buy the issue and just rip out all the pages related to this travesty of penmanship.

[kevinism]

Illegal?

And well...1/5 is more than 10%. Just saying.

Any mention of homosexuality in mainstream United States comics was forbidden by the Comics Code Authority (CCA) until 1989.

And well.. HAHAHHAHAHHA ok

[RandyMcDonald]

Illegal?

Yes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_themes_in_comics

LGBT themes in comics are a relatively new concept, as lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) themes and characters were historically omitted intentionally from the content of comic books and their comic strip predecessors, due to either censorship or the perception that comics were for children. With any mention of homosexuality in mainstream United States comics forbidden by the Comics Code Authority (CCA) until 1989, earlier attempts at exploring these issues in the US took the form of subtle hints or subtext regarding a character's sexual orientation. LGBT themes were tackled earlier in underground comix from the early 1970s onward. Independently published one-off comic books and series, often produced by gay creators and featuring autobiographical storylines, tackled political issues of interest to LGBT readers.

Here in Canada, I know that periodicals like Gay (1964-1966) were suppressed by official censorship and the criminal prosecution of contributors on obscenity charges. I have no experience with the United States, but I do not believe things to have been different.

[TakoM]

Marvel and dc again proving they care more about headlines they think will sell books then actually diversity. Shame. Hopefully later retconed as mind controll or something. Don't get me wrong I got nothing against gay characters. I was happy for Northstar when he got married in x-men books. Does it really add anything to character to just 180 sexual turn when obvious he was never gay. Again your not helping really promote diversity espically when your leaking it. Looks more like you are doing it just for headlines.
Bendis continues to be one of the worst writers for main stream books. I mean his creator own stuff is good. His non regular marvel u is good but when its in confines of regular MU its all about drastically changing things. He spent years ripping the soul out of the x-men with stuff like house of m and no more mutants. He ripped, stomped, burned, and blew up the soul avengers with avengers dissembled and the run that followed.

Let us start a campaign with the title: " Stop defending bad writing !"

[Star_Jammer]

Yes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_themes_in_comics

Here in Canada, I know that periodicals like Gay (1964-1966) were suppressed by official censorship and the criminal prosecution of contributors on obscenity charges. I have no experience with the United States, but I do not believe things to have been different.

All I'm finding (superficially searching, mind you) is that publishers were more or less shunned if they didn't adhere to the CCA guidelines (books not distributed, etc). Are there cases of actual legal action? Genuinely curious.

[FluffyCyclopsRLZ]

Cyclops is the one actor she had been dealing with. She may have known about Storm, and she obviously came to Xavier for help, but did she know about Hill.

Tempus knew darn well that Hill was quarterbacking the X-Men/Cyclops-related operations and that she sucked at it. Refer to UXM #22. That's exactly ONE issue before her "Waaahhh, you won't have sex with me, you're an hypocrite, now I get why people hate you, waaaaaah!" freakout.

Heck, even if she hadn't known a single thing about any of the major players, why would it even matter? She's a time-traveler and she had a world-class telepath with her. There was no rush whatsoever, right? It would've been unbelievably easy for the two of them to safely investigate for more than thirty seconds. Heck, it would have been even easier to accidentally investigate for more than thirty seconds, lol. But she didn't because of Cyclops-induced butthurt.

Even more importantly, Cyclops is the one actor who everyone agreed was dealing badly with the situation. By the time you have Magneto kneeling in the snow where he had been thrown, lamenting that he had not done enough to prevent Cyclops from going off the rails, it's a fair bet he's out of control.

Everyone was dealing badly with the situation, actually. Which is the whole point. There' nothing wrong about Tempus calling Cyclops out on his crap. The thing is, she should've called other folks on their crap, too. But she didn't because of Cyclops-induced butthurt.

[RandyMcDonald]

All I'm finding (superficially searching, mind you) is that publishers were more or less shunned if they didn't adhere to the CCA guidelines (books not distributed, etc). Are there cases of actual legal action? Genuinely curious.

Again, I don't know about the United States, but there were certainly prosecution of people involved with non-heterosexual publications in Canada, as well s official censorship prohibiting the production and/or import of suspect literature.

If we're speaking about a hypothetical scenario where Bobby Drake was created with the intention of making him gay, in the early 1960s, then there's no question this would have meant the end of Marvel. A mainstream publication creating a gay character in a periodical aimed at children and teenagers would have been unthinkable.

The only vaguely mainstream representation of a non-heterosexual character I can think of at the time is Senator Brigham Anderson, a character in Allen Drury's 1959 Advice and Consent. Anderson, a married man who had a brief gay affair in wartime, played a noteworthy role in preventing a deep-cover Soviet agent from becoming Secretary of State. Even then, the only way Anderson could succeed was by killing himself when he was blackmailed over this.

Everyone was dealing badly with the situation, actually. Which is the whole point. There' nothing wrong about Tempus calling Cyclops out on his crap. The thing is, she should've called other folks on their crap, too. But she didn't because of Cyclops-induced butthurt.

Or, perhaps, she was more concerned with dealing with the one person she was in regular contact with.

[Arya]

this has to be the most ham-fisted clumsily portrayed try hard writing from bendis i have ever read. he has the subtly of a meteor striking the earth. i think ill buy the issue and just rip out all the pages related to this travesty of penmanship.

You will be ripping up the whole thing.

[Star_Jammer]

Again, I don't know about the United States, but there were certainly prosecution of people involved with non-heterosexual publications in Canada, as well s official censorship prohibiting the production and/or import of suspect literature.

If we're speaking about a hypothetical scenario where Bobby Drake was created with the intention of making him gay, in the early 1960s, then there's no question this would have meant the end of Marvel. A mainstream publication creating a gay character in a periodical aimed at children and teenagers would have been unthinkable.

The only vaguely mainstream representation of a non-heterosexual character I can think of at the time is Senator Brigham Anderson, a character in Allen Drury's 1959 Advice and Consent. Anderson, a married man who had a brief gay affair in wartime, played a noteworthy role in preventing a deep-cover Soviet agent from becoming Secretary of State. Even then, the only way Anderson could succeed was by killing himself when he was blackmailed over this.

I did some further digging and found this gem, particularly this section and this section.

"For much of the 20th century, creators were strongly discouraged from depicting gay relationships in comic books, which were regarded as a medium for children. Until 1989 the Comics Code Authority (CCA), which imposed de facto censorship on comics sold through newsstands in the United States, forbade any suggestion of homosexuality,[2] and LGBT characters were excluded from comics bearing the CCA seal."

Important follow-up links would be: illegal, legal, and de facto.

I'm not arguing that gay characters weren't "allowed" in mainstream comics; I questioned the use of the word "illegal".

[RandyMcDonald]

I did some further digging and found this gem, particularly this section and this section.

"For much of the 20th century, creators were strongly discouraged from depicting gay relationships in comic books, which were regarded as a medium for children. Until 1989 the Comics Code Authority (CCA), which imposed de facto censorship on comics sold through newsstands in the United States, forbade any suggestion of homosexuality,[2] and LGBT characters were excluded from comics bearing the CCA seal."

Important follow-up links would be: illegal, legal, and de facto.

I'm not arguing that gay characters weren't "allowed" in mainstream comics; I questioned the use of the word "illegal".

In that being involved in gay publications for adults could lead to criminal prosecutions of the people involved and the suppression of their work, "illegal" would seem accurate. I can't imagine that people involved in gay publications marketed at children would fare any better.

[Supermutant2099]

Have you not been paying attention to the multiple times people have provided specific evidence as to incidents, or tendencies, which could be taken as suggesting he might be gay? It was not an inevitable outcome, and I was not convinced by arguments that he must have been gay or bi or otherwise non-straight, but I was paying enough attention to not be taken by surprise when this happened.

All I have heard is half hearted fans theories that probably from bendis fan boys. Most of it as other people said based on bad like or breaking up with girlfriends. So superman now gay for not in love wonder woman anymore? I been reading character and watch for almost 30 years. Never thought or never leaned that character that went that way.

[Star_Jammer]

In that being involved in gay publications for adults could lead to criminal prosecutions of the people involved and the suppression of their work, "illegal" would seem accurate. I can't imagine that people involved in gay publications marketed at children would fare any better.

To the bolded: this is why I asked for any examples. My links listed several underground publications with no mentions of any sort of prosecution.

To the underlined, true...but not necessarily legally sanctioned.

Sure, it could very well have been publisher-suicide for Marvel to publish gay characters in the way-back-when. The question is: would it have been legal for them to commit publisher-suicide, if they so chose to?

[Centipede Damascus]

Honestly, one of the reasons I dislike the Bobby is Gay retcon is that I really liked when he and Kitty Pryde were together for a bit and it feels like Bendis decided he was going to reveal that Bobby was gay so he just abruptly broke them up for no real reason to make way for that story.

And then Kitty almost immediately hooked up with Star-Lord, and I hate that relationship so much.

[Pharoahe22]

Honestly, what does him being a homosexual actually change? What does him coming out of the closet ruin for you guys? Oh no, he won't be going out with other fictional women anymore. The horror! Seriously, this is sounding more like less of a problem with Bobby being a homosexual and more like a problem with the notion of homosexuality. It's NOT a big deal. I'd hate to see how some of you would react if someone you've known for decades suddenly came out despite the fact that they've had relations with the opposite sex. Really makes you wonder.

I don't think that this is fair at all. Look at things from my perspective. I'm a black, straight, 33 year old male. When they first announced that Northstar was coming out of the closet all those years ago, I thought that it was ground-breaking. I bought two copies of the Alpha Flight issue. And I understand the need for more LGBT characters. I really do. I absolutely agree that there should be more LGBT characters. But this? I don't think that any of us can deny the fact that this is, most definitely, 100% a retcon...and that Iceman was originally intended to be straight. I've always been a fan of Iceman, and as such, I've always been invested in Iceman's relationships. I was always rooting for Iceman to get his stuff together. I was a big fan of X-Factor...and I loved the whole thing with Bobby and Opal. Bobby and Opal were an item when I first got into comic books...and I always hoped that they would wind up together. I also thought that the Iceman/Mystique thing was interesting...and I recently got behind Bobby and Kitty. I always thought that they had an interesting relationship...dating back to the 90's. So when there is a retcon like this, it's kinda like "well all of those relationships that you got invested in as a reader were doomed to fail from the start because Bobby was always gay...albeit deeply closeted". And that's a little deflating as a fan...looking back at how I felt when I originally read the stories. And I don't think that it's wrong to feel that way.

I've seen people say things like there have always been winks and nudges that Bobby was gay...because of his failed relationships and some of the self-sabotaging things that his done. And I'm like..."well can't he just be a F up?" I know plenty of guys that are F ups in relationships. I have a friend that consistently sabotages his relationships because of commitment issues, low self-esteem, etc. For me, I read it as Bobby having these kinds of issues...instead of him being deeply in the closet. So when young Bobby was first announced as gay, I had a "what in the hell?!?" reaction to it. It seemed so left field, and for me it completed contradicted everything that I'd ever read. It seemed shoe-horned to me...because they were looking for a major gay character. And instead of actually making a new gay character...and organically turning him or her into a major player, they changed a character with a pretty established history. And it's different from real life...because we have a 4th wall perspective on the situation where we know this was a retcon. And we can speculate the reasons as to why this retcon occurred. It's not the same thing as a real life human coming out of the closet after years of relations with the opposite sex. I'm well aware that situations like this happen in real life (outside of the time travel aspect). But it's a little different with a fictional story...where you can see behind the curtain and you know some of the reasons for the change. Will I stop being a fan of Iceman now because of this change? No of course not...that's ridiculous. But it does change how I look back at past stories, and it is a major change to the character that's different from what I've grown to know. That's all.

It also rubbed me the wrong way because of some of Marvel's latest moves in general. There's a big call for more diversity in comics. And it is SORELY needed. So in order to gain more diversity, Marvel has been switching out major characters for their more diverse sidekicks and retconning certain things. Wolverine's a woman. Thor's a woman. Hulk's Asian. Captain America is Black. Iceman's gay. And I'm just looking at this whole thing and I'm like "This is soooooooo lazy." Instead of making Sam Wilson, X-23, Cho, and even Jane Foster majorly important in their own right, you force them even further into the shadows of much larger characters because you need more diversity in the forefront. And the crazy thing is? None of these changes are going to last. How about creating new diverse characters, and organically making them important? How about making a Blue Marvel solo book as important as a Steve Rogers - Captain America book? How about making a Sam Wilson - The Falcon book as important as an Iron Man book? Let's have more Kamala Khan, Red Wolf, and Spider-Gwen kinds of books. Those are moves that are impressive to me. And characters like Apollo and the Midnighter are relatively new in the comic world (compared to some of the staples of the industry). How about creating new, awesome LGBT characters like them, and like Wiccan and Hulkling and organically making them more important instead of doing a retcon? The gender swaps and retcons just come off lazy and sloppy to me. I've just never been a fan of these

So what are we even arguing about here? It seems to me like everyone is just looking at it from a different perspective. On the one hand you have the "in-universe" perspective where the current retcons are (and from the "in-universe" point of view always have been) the true reality, and on the other you have the "out of-universe" perspective where writers have written and readers have read a character with specific traits until another writer comes along and changes things. As far as I'm concerned, it's perfectly reasonable for fans to be annoyed at retcons, regardless of the specific changes. Take Iron Man's parentage change for example; regardless of your opinion on it, now that the adopted element has been added it retroactively changes Marvel's reality so that "in-universe" he has always been adopted. That doesn't change the fact that he wasn't originally supposed to be adopted of course, and it makes perfect sense to me that people would be annoyed at the sudden change. It doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with the character being adopted, just that some fans are bothered by the sudden change to the characters history.

There may be contradictions here, but that's usually the case with retcons, isn't it? It seems to me like most people here are simply disagreeing about whether or not his past relationships with women constitute a contradiction, but does it really matter? After all, I think most us can agree that this is still a retcon. We can probably agree that when those stories were originally being written Iceman was most likely intended to be straight. People have different views of relationships and when we read something we tend to fill in the gaps with our own worldviews; so even if Iceman himself never explicitly stated that he's sexual attracted to women, is it really so surprising that people assumed he was sexually attracted to the women he was in love with? I know that I at least have never had any sort of romantic feelings towards someone I wasn't sexually attracted to and I doubt that I ever could. The point I'm trying to make is that when we read something and fill in the gaps with our own worldviews that becomes our reality, regardless of what was actually printed, and changing ones reality is a lot more difficult than you'd imagine, even when presented with facts.

Anyway, sorry for rambling a little, but I think what I'm trying to say here is that it's perfectly acceptable for people to be annoyed about this. Whether that's because they were looking at the "out of-universe" perspective, or because they had filled in the gaps and are now finding that Marvel's reality no longer reflects their's it's still ok. It's also OK to be happy with this. There isn't really a right or a wrong answer, so just accept each others opinions ffs.

EXACTLY

[silence.]

Goodness, there have been threads around this forum from years ago arguing Bobby has long been alluded to being a repressed gay man. For a long time it was the only thing people were talking about due to him not factoring into the storylines for ages. It's now confirmed and change absolutely nothing about his character or previous writing. To argue that it does is reductive and insulting to a multitude of people no matter how you dress it up. Let it go.