Uncanny X-Men #600 Review/discussion [Spoilers]

[diabaz]

Sigh.

To quote myself.
"This is sort of why those statements tend to fall on deaf ears. Most often these days when it comes to PC issues, you aren't allowed to voice an opinion where something is anything less than perfect or you get shouted down under a wave of people screaming intolerance. A lot of the nuance within the messaging, or large sections of it get lost to instant reaction."

Problem 1) The biggest issue with Bobby directly is the drastic continuity sweep of a longstanding character. Not who he bangs. Complete non-factor. It is however not the only problem.
Problem 2) The abrupt way it was handled did it no favors.
Now the part where pitchforks come out and everyone stops reading, and forgets everything written before it.
Problem 3) It was obviously done for the sole reason of diversifying. Diversity is good. Making drastic changes to a longstanding character, with the ignoring of history or quality storytelling to push an agenda is not.
Problem 4) Tying it all together. "The separation between pretending something could be real and getting lost in another universe vs. seeing the puppetmasters at play". Obvious agenda, broken wall, immersion gone. No longer reading a comic. Now reading propaganda.

Like TheFury said, points 1 and 2 would still be true, and still be the prime culprit if he were suddenly spewing fire. Its however multi-layered.

That leads us tor your post and the not so subtle bigotry jab... The statement of making changes due to agenda and not purely the story or character is still true, problematic, and still results in broken immersion. Homosexuality is a complete non-factor. It just happens to be inside of an agenda.

I could go down a deeper rabbit hole and talk about how it doesn't make the statement true for all readers. Or cases where even if it was noticed, some may be able to turn an easy blind eye and still be impacted by it. Maybe due to personal relation, maybe due to it being an eye opening experience from something they don't understand. Perhaps they are will be so forgiving because they have been so under-represented and to finally get something is a meaningful and wonderful thing. Or Or Or. But all of that is lost, everything must be black and white and mature discussion on complex topics is next to impossible. because ""Most often these days when it comes to PC issues, you aren't allowed to voice an opinion where something is anything less than perfect or you get shouted down under a wave of people screaming intolerance. A lot of the nuance within the messaging, or large sections of it get lost to instant reaction."

Thank you. Excatly my thoughts just written better =).

[cwatz]

You are right to identify the problem as lying with the willing suspension of disbelief.

But here's the thing: Marvel has always been shaped by "puppetmasters." The characters aren't real, they have never not been influenced by external forces. They have always been written by writers with personal and political beliefs that inform the stories they write, and those writers have always been directed by editorial agendas, and company wide policies. Marvel has always been a business, and it has always tried to target the audience that will give it the most sales. Marvel saying "let's have more diversity" today is no more editorial meddling (significantly less in fact) than Marvel saying no homosexuality back in the days of Jim Shooter, or adhering to the Comics Code Authority.

It is not Marvel's way of telling stories that has changed; it is the fact that suddenly you find yourself disagreeing with Marvel's editorial direction. Your prejudices towards diversity prevent you from suspending disbelief, not the stories themselves.

And you ask (rhetorically) why make Iceman gay? It is not about quotas or ticking boxes. It is because people want diversity. Women and minorities want diversity. As a straight white male I want diversity. Most importantly, the overwhelming majority of creators support diversity. There is a huge demand for diversity, and so Marvel will fill it. Because that is what companies do.

EDIT: Just to preempt any complaints, when I say prejudice I mean it the literal sense of pre-judgement, not in the vague sense of bigotry in which it is often used today.

Appreciate the thought out response. I'm not sure if you read any of my other posts, but nevermind that, onwards.

Here is where everything falls off, and as you pre-emptively guessed "Your prejudices towards diversity prevent you from suspending disbelief". First, for that very very specific example, Its pre-judgement of the method of which it is done. That appears to keep getting lost. Am I sitting here criticizing Goldballs, Triage and Hijack because of "diversity". No. Because its not an issue.
Now to fall down the meandering pit...

First and foremost I don't want pandering or bad stories. I used the Leia example twice already, ill use it again. If I prejudged anything female, then I would not be respondent to females correct? The majority of my top 10 favorite chars. Female.
I would also rather not see retcons unless it undoes something horrendous, or is a requirement to move something forward to tell a magnificent story.
I dont want legacies passed around like toys. I recently lost my mind when they threw the Phoenix on Cyclops again. White male.
That does not mean said legacies will result in bad stories.
That does not mean pandering will be even remotely used.
I don't like when immersion is broken. That can be a writer winking at an audience, callbacks or drastic shifts in characters or properties in a fashion that is absent of the pure intention of storytelling. Bobby was changed for diversity, a box, whatever you want to call it. I dont like it because it retconned an longtime character. I dont like it because the changed was made solely for an agenda, and not solely because of a natural progression of his character. Diversity is a relative non factor. Changing a character and changing said character for a reason other than the story are the factors. And to say its not about ticking boxes, and then to say its about diversity is contradictory. If its done to fulfill a specific purpose such as that, its definitively ticking boxes. Tick your boxes, you just don't need to retcon to do it.

Ill cut myself off here because I could carry on forever. This is merely to show there are layers and layers to everything, its not black and white. Some things apply in certain places but not others, so on so forth. Some of it purely from a readers approach. For example if ANXM was the only comic I had ever read, and I was oblivious to what was going on in any other comic, Bobby's outing would be entirely different. Those problems would not exist. Perhaps only the abruptness of it.

Perhaps there is a double standard comparing something like a policy shift vs. writer. The writer barrier is harder to break due to the necessity of it being intact to keep said suspense of disbelief. I can't fully accept the double standard though because a policy shift isn't the problem in and of itself. Like I said six to seven thousand times, its the method of which its done.

X-Men was always about diversity and mutants were always a political propaganda. If you have problems with this why did you ever even read X-Men?

For the love of god. Enough with this shit. Maybe because I enjoy diversity, acceptance, underdogs, things I can relate to, things I'm not familiar with that I can experience second hand, thought provoking, complex stories and characters. "But that cant be true! He must be a bigot!11!!!"
I already posted about how this makes economic sense, and how you couldn't criticize Marvel for it! Ive posted about the benefits of it. About how it doesn't apply to everyone, nor must everything appeal to everyone. That and about a billion other things. And the response? "lol if you hate diversity why are you reading x-men".

This is overwhelming gratification for my first quote. "This is sort of why those statements tend to fall on deaf ears. Most often these days when it comes to PC issues, you aren't allowed to voice an opinion where something is anything less than perfect or you get shouted down under a wave of people screaming intolerance. A lot of the nuance within the messaging, or large sections of it get lost to instant reaction."

Well I've been on forums for 4 hours. My mind is melting, I am broken. Good night.

[Narasinha]

X-Men was always about diversity and mutants were always a political propaganda. If you have problems with this why did you ever even read X-Men?

I don't think Cwatz has a problem with diversity. He has a problem when it is promoted just because it is "fashionable" and not because it is a good thing to do.

He is not objecting to Bobby being gay or Marvel making him come out of the closet now but about how and why it was done. It feel like it was done not because it is a good and interesting story but because it is good PR and fashionable to have a main character doing his coming out.

Bobby should be revealed as being gay because it's a good and interesting story. Not because it may get Marvel a few market shares.

I don't fully agree with this because I don't think it was the (main) reason why Bendis did it. The feeling that it was done for this purpose comes from Bendis writing style: He write several issues of what some people will call "fillers" or "irrelevant to the main plot" and then he resolve major plots or introduce imporant changes over a few pages. That's just how he is pacing his stories. On the other hand, Bendis could have done that story earlier in his run, which would have let him deal with it in following issues instead of throwing all those changes (it isn't just about Bobby) in the last issues of his books.

[cwatz]

I understand that may be how some people including you may feel about this but the bandwagon of "forced change" is an insidious and nasty idea dressed up as reason. It completely disregards the story being told and anyone that may feel resonance with that story. I am not saying that is what you are saying but I am pointing out why the pitchforks are suddenly raised.

Calling this propaganda is essentially making an accusation against Marvel that I don't think can be backed up. There may be a very vocal group that assert this but noise and outcry is rarely a good indication of truth.

I know why the pitchforks are raised

It does not disregard people that feel resonance with the story though. This is from the post you quoted. The entire statement is saying there can still be validation. It could be from people who disagree. It could be from people who agree but can push that aside because it was so compelling. All kinds of people.
"I could go down a deeper rabbit hole and talk about how it doesn't make the statement true for all readers. Or cases where even if it was noticed, some may be able to turn an easy blind eye and still be impacted by it. Maybe due to personal relation, maybe due to it being an eye opening experience from something they don't understand. Perhaps they are will be so forgiving because they have been so under-represented and to finally get something is a meaningful and wonderful thing. Or Or Or. "

But as ive been saying all night. No one reads that, or the message is ignored. Becauseeee (yup, its coming again) ""Most often these days when it comes to PC issues, you aren't allowed to voice an opinion where something is anything less than perfect or you get shouted down under a wave of people screaming intolerance. A lot of the nuance within the messaging, or large sections of it get lost to instant reaction.

Now I'm really going to bed.

[Jackraow21]

Iceman being a closeted gay man doesn't seem like gratuitous pandering at all. At least to me. I have a good friend who was in the closet until after graduating college. He dated a number of girls and even had a serious girlfriend while in college. Then he came out, and while it was extremely hard for him to do (his mother pretty much disowned him at first), he is now a very well adjusted and much happier person as a result. So this doesn't seem far-fetched at all to me, like Marvel is really reaching here in order to just fill some diversity quota. Quite the contrary. IMO it feels like a natural evolution of the character. Hell, people have been speculating for years that he's gay on message boards just like this one!

So I've got no issues with it myself. Just my $.02.

As for the rest of the issue...meh. Felt like a very quick wrapping up of a bunch of sub-plots, and the "Trial of Beast" was a huge cop out.

[cranger]

Iceman being a closeted gay man doesn't seem like gratuitous pandering at all. At least to me. I have a good friend who was in the closet until after graduating college. He dated a number of girls and even had a serious girlfriend while in college. Then he came out, and while it was extremely hard for him to do (his mother pretty much disowned him at first), he is now a very well adjusted and much happier person as a result. So this doesn't seem far-fetched at all to me, like Marvel is really reaching here in order to just fill some diversity quota. Quite the contrary. IMO it feels like a natural evolution of the character. Hell, people have been speculating for years that he's gay on message boards just like this one!

So I've got no issues with it myself. Just my $.02.

As for the rest of the issue...meh. Felt like a very quick wrapping up of a bunch of sub-plots, and the "Trial of Beast" was a huge cop out.

The problem is that this was not a story. It was a scene that had nothing to do with the actual story that preceded it. A story about a mutant also struggling with their sexual orientation could be a good story, but Bendis never told it. Then again, Bendis would never be able to tell it, just look at his Dark Beast reveal. For someone who has written some of the most decompressed X-Men ever he sure decided at the worst time to abandon the 'show, don't tell' technique.

[Jackraow21]

See, I disagree. I think it was a story and he did tell it. But perhaps he just didn't think that in this day and age that a character's coming out story warranted a whole arc, or even a whole issue for that matter. Maybe he thought "less is more" in this regard, and decided to just do it without a lot of build up or fanfare.

And, like you said, this is Bendis. He'll spend months building things up only to have the climax be completely lackluster and/or feel rushed. So in this instance he just did it. No endless build up. Just pulled the trigger. I can live with that.

[FluffyCyclopsRLZ]

See, I disagree. I think it was a story and he did tell it. But perhaps he just didn't think that in this day and age that a character's coming out story warranted a whole arc, or even a whole issue for that matter. Maybe he thought "less is more" in this regard, and decided to just do it without a lot of build up or fanfare.

Folks aren't whining about how Bendis should've devoted 20 issues to Iceman's struggle and presented it as the most dramatic thing ever. All they're saying is there should've been some legitimate build-up that was Bobby-centric. Not Jeen randomly walking up to him and saying "Zomg, I'm totally offended that you're acting like a cartoonishly sexist douchebag, you should stop! So what if you've been doing it since forever! This is important RIGHT NOW. For... reasons."

That's why it felt like such a timely, borderline desperate PR stunt.

[Hariel0079]

Folks aren't whining about how Bendis should've devoted 20 issues to Iceman's struggle and presented it as the most dramatic thing ever. All they're saying is there should've been some legitimate build-up that was Bobby-centric. Not Jeen randomly walking up to him and saying "Zomg, I'm totally offended that you're acting like a cartoonishly sexist douchebag, you should stop! So what if you've been doing it since forever! This is important RIGHT NOW. For... reasons."

That's why it felt like such a timely, borderline desperate PR stunt.

One of the rare times I agree with you.

[FluffyCyclopsRLZ]

One of the rare times I agree with you.

Ooooooh. Let's see if we can get a streak going.

How about Bendis' claim that he didn't rewrite a single line? I know, I know, I've been joking about Eva!Rewrites for months, but we obviously didn't get those. I was wrong. The issue read as such an out-of-continuity mess that I think Bendis is telling the truth. Agree or disagree?

[Emma's Midriff]

i'm going to take this issue as absolute proof that Marvel give zero shits about the X-men.

[Jackraow21]

Folks aren't whining about how Bendis should've devoted 20 issues to Iceman's struggle and presented it as the most dramatic thing ever. All they're saying is there should've been some legitimate build-up that was Bobby-centric. Not Jeen randomly walking up to him and saying "Zomg, I'm totally offended that you're acting like a cartoonishly sexist douchebag, you should stop! So what if you've been doing it since forever! This is important RIGHT NOW. For... reasons."

That's why it felt like such a timely,borderline desperate PR stunt.

Yeah, I get it. But I guess I just didn't see it as something that necessarily needed to be built up. I suppose Bendis could've dropped hints here and there, had some internal Claremont-esque monologue indicating that he was struggling with finding male team members attractive, stuff like that to plant the seeds. That certainly would've come across as more deliberate and like less of a last minute PR stunt (which this definitely was, no doubt).

I suppose I'm just saying it didn't really bother me regardless. Yeah, it was kind of sudden. But life is that way sometimes. So Iceman is gay now. Okay. I'm cool with that. Even if it was done in the name of greater diversity and being PC and all that. Doesn't really change my opinion of Iceman or my feelings about him as a character. So no biggie as far as I'm concerned. That's all.

It bothers others, and that's cool too.

[FluffyCyclopsRLZ]

i'm going to take this issue as absolute proof that Marvel give zero shits about the X-men.

Know what's the really messed up thing? Marvel can totally brag about the delay being proof that they "care" about the relaunch, lol.

[VilotorioFabiano]

I don't think Cwatz has a problem with diversity. He has a problem when it is promoted just because it is "fashionable" and not because it is a good thing to do.

When the XMEN were first created, the fashionable thing to do was make them all white and straight. How come you guys don't get upset about that?

I mean it's the XMEN. A story about minorities and yet all the original characters are white and straight? The right thing to do was to have included actual diversity in a team about diversity but they didn't because the fashionable thing back then was to be bigoted.

Bobby should be revealed as being gay because it's a good and interesting story. Not because it may get Marvel a few market shares.

So it's ok to pander to straight white people but not to anyone else? All Marvel does is try and increase their market share, and they've used many gimmicks when it comes to their straight characters. Yet when gimmicks are pulled with non white straight characters, you all act like it's the end of the world. Tell us your favorite stories and we will find a ton of holes and gimmicks in them. Marvel stories have endless amount of inaccuracies in them.

[Jackraow21]

i'm going to take this issue as absolute proof that Marvel give zero shits about the X-men.

I take it as proof that Bendis was just ready to be off to the next thing and gave zero F's about wrapping up his dangling threads in any sort of coherent or enjoyable way. We already know that Marvel doesn't care much about the X-men. Certainly not in other media where they might *gasp* help FOX's movies.

But Extraordinary was pretty good in spite of that, at least IMO. Not crazy about the whole T-Pox premise, but still liked the first issue regardless.