Uncanny X-Men #600 Review/discussion [Spoilers]

[ExodusCloak]

Bendis just said on his tumblr that not a single word was changed. This is the original product. So so much for those saying he made some last minute changes that's why it reads this way.

[JKtheMac]

Bendis just said on his tumblr that not a single word was changed. This is the original product. So so much for those saying he made some last minute changes that's why it reads this way.

Was anyone saying that? The main problem is that Marvel didn't commision him to write a longer piece and they moved him off the book before he could finish the stories naturally. I dont think anyone thought he had to rewrite or cut. (At the risk of restating my earlier points he did have time to do some of this better.)

[ExodusCloak]

Was anyone saying that? The main problem is that Marvel didn't commision him to write a longer piece and they moved him off the book before he could finish the stories naturally. I dont think anyone thought he had to rewrite or cut. (At the risk of restating my earlier points he did have time to do some of this better.)

He wanted to finish off on UXN 600. He plotted his stories that way. It's hardly Marvels fault that he wanted to stretch out arcs. This was also apparent in All New X-Men as well. A lot of Bendis plots are usually resolved in company wide crossovers or usually by other writers. He considers himself an idea person which is why how the Cyclops and Magneto series spun out of UXM. You could have given him 5 more issues he would have wasted it on 5 issues of Dazzler going shopping.

[xhx23x]

He wanted to finish off on UXN 600. He plotted his stories that way. It's hardly Marvels fault that he wanted to stretch out arcs. This was also apparent in All New X-Men as well. A lot of Bendis plots are usually resolved in company wide crossovers or usually by other writers. He considers himself an idea person which is why how the Cyclops and Magneto series spun out of UXM. You could have given him 5 more issues he would have wasted it on 5 issues of Dazzler going shopping.

That would've been better.

Unless he found a way to get her into a worse costume

[JKtheMac]

He wanted to finish off on UXN 600.

I dont think that was the origional plan, I think Marvel bumped him onto Iron Man and he decided to make the best of it by using the 600th issue. But back when he was suggesting this was going to be like an old 100 page giant-size issue I bet he was thinking he would get more pages.

P.S. This issue looks just like one of those last TV episodes where the writer is forced to wrap up as much as he can because the show has been cancelled. Now personally I think those are usually a symptom of bad writing leading to over complex story with an overwrought arc structure, so I don't let Bendis totally of the hook on this.

[bishop88]

a very ho him issue and if i had to describe this issue as well as bendis entire run on the x-books in one word it would be FOREGETABLE. Im actually a huge bendis fan and his daredevil run was one of the best ever i even loved his avengers work but his x-men run was just so blah, whether it be killing dark beast and exodus for no reason that beyond stupid new mutant named mathew to one of the worst x-book crossovers ever with the broterhood. After the illyana colossus scene it would have been nice to see bendis focus a little more on some of the orginal long time x-men. And as for the orginal 5 time traveled i actually loved the first 10 plus issues of all new x-men but they really have worn out there welcome and need to go away. Honestly the only two good things bendis brought to the x-books were some of magiks training with doc strange and eva bell who seems like she still could be a cool character other than that everthing else just forgettable

[The Fury]

Indeed. Unless the reader is homophobic, they shouldn't have a problem with Iceman being gay.

It's not like there's a shortage of straight characters.

Most people have an issue with the way it was told not the result, 40 years of continuity changed which could have been told as a long thought out plotline over a year in comics where he came to terms on his own (no telepathic intrusion) would have been so much better than 2 pages of young Iceman (instead of the older one, the one people care about) and then some result pages in this. I'm pretty sure if they gave Iceman the power to control flames suddenly (Pyro style) people would also react similarly. People also don't like the Maximoff twins retcon from recently nor the Tony Stark one.

[ExodusCloak]

I dont think that was the origional plan, I think Marvel bumped him onto Iron Man and he decided to make the best of it by using the 600th issue. But back when he was suggesting this was going to be like an old 100 page giant-size issue I bet he was thinking he would get more pages.

P.S. This issue looks just like one of those last TV episodes where the writer is forced to wrap up as much as he can because the show has been cancelled. Now personally I think those are usually a symptom of bad writing leading to over complex story with an overwrought arc structure, so I don't let Bendis totally of the hook on this.

He said there was no additional story and that nothing changed. So it couldn't have been 100 pages of story. When he mentioned the page count originally I thought it would be like this with a re-print of an older story plus pin ups by various artists

[Hariel0079]

Bendis just said on his tumblr that not a single word was changed. This is the original product. So so much for those saying he made some last minute changes that's why it reads this way.

He can say whatever he wants doesn't mean he may or may haven't done so.

[cwatz]

@KaleRylan
Keep in mind I was only commenting on the general topic and giving it credence and depth. Not the scale of it, or where it ranks in the big picture. Merely that it has a degree of merit. Its far from the biggest issue, especially in the x-line.

As for dissecting the other properties, now that's digging down a much wider hole, and not one I really care to go down as specifics aren't important for what I was trying to accomplish (though Thor seriously sucked). Note the volume of changes, and note your own reaction to Bobby and checking the boxes. Its at least a degree of acknowledgement. That doesn't mean all examples will be bad. I even say "not to mention the potential of something taking off". It was just one piece of the puzzle.

Most importantly, now note my Leia example. Pandering and poor storytelling. The trend is not exclusive to character swaps/alterations, it applies directly to the writing as well. Of course its all a case by case basis, and as JK says, its also subjective. It won't apply to all readers, but it still exists, and it can impact the material. Not from a place of intolerance or hatred, but from fear having their immersion encroached upon in a series they follow. That immersion is the heart of everything. At least in my eyes.

@JKtheMac
I really like the point about readers approaching things differently, and most of this being subjective. Its absolutely true and not something that should be lost in the discussion, from any point of view.

I could write pages on all of this and I know being simplified could make it easily misinterpreted. Though I don't disagree with almost anything you said, I still stand by my comments. An important note of clarity, the Bobby issue still remains independent of everything else. Like TheFury said, the problem is altering a long standing character for the hell of it. Using it with "another" was 3 birds with 1 stone. The lost nuance from impassioned responses, the trend, and Bobby. Like you said, tackling real issues in imaginative and thought provoking ways is great. There are few things that please me more. It just needs to be genuine.

[Hariel0079]

Time Run Out and the incursions happen after UXM #600. After this issue, Beast goes on the run with the Illuminati while Cyclops get a Phoenix Egg and start the X-Nation.

TRO was happening the same time, beast met with his younger self at the jgs. Older Hank specifically called him from Scott's "secret" hideout.

[shgs]

The real point is that the wall as a reader is broken. The separation between pretending something could be real and getting lost in another universe vs. seeing the puppetmasters at play is gone. You don't read "Wow this is a compelling story. Watching someone come to terms with something this life altering, its captivating". The story reads "Marvel wanted a gay guy". Why? As stated - "another". Black Cap, Asian Hulk, Fem Thor and retconned Bobby. They are checking boxes, and bending everything in their way to make it happen.

You are right to identify the problem as lying with the willing suspension of disbelief.

But here's the thing: Marvel has always been shaped by "puppetmasters." The characters aren't real, they have never not been influenced by external forces. They have always been written by writers with personal and political beliefs that inform the stories they write, and those writers have always been directed by editorial agendas, and company wide policies. Marvel has always been a business, and it has always tried to target the audience that will give it the most sales. Marvel saying "let's have more diversity" today is no more editorial meddling (significantly less in fact) than Marvel saying no homosexuality back in the days of Jim Shooter, or adhering to the Comics Code Authority.

It is not Marvel's way of telling stories that has changed; it is the fact that suddenly you find yourself disagreeing with Marvel's editorial direction. Your prejudices towards diversity prevent you from suspending disbelief, not the stories themselves.

And you ask (rhetorically) why make Iceman gay? It is not about quotas or ticking boxes. It is because people want diversity. Women and minorities want diversity. As a straight white male I want diversity. Most importantly, the overwhelming majority of creators support diversity. There is a huge demand for diversity, and so Marvel will fill it. Because that is what companies do.

EDIT: Just to preempt any complaints, when I say prejudice I mean it the literal sense of pre-judgement, not in the vague sense of bigotry in which it is often used today.

[Fokken]

Nicely worded shgs.

[xhx23x]

You are right to identify the problem as lying with the willing suspension of disbelief.

But here's the thing: Marvel has always been shaped by "puppetmasters." The characters aren't real, they have never not been influenced by external forces. They have always been written by writers with personal and political beliefs that inform the stories they write, and those writers have always been directed by editorial agendas, and company wide policies. Marvel has always been a business, and it has always tried to target the audience that will give it the most sales. Marvel saying "let's have more diversity" today is no more editorial meddling (significantly less in fact) than Marvel saying no homosexuality back in the days of Jim Shooter, or adhering to the Comics Code Authority.

It is not Marvel's way of telling stories that has changed; it is the fact that suddenly you find yourself disagreeing with Marvel's editorial direction. Your prejudices towards diversity prevent you from suspending disbelief, not the stories themselves.

And you ask (rhetorically) why make Iceman gay? It is not about quotas or ticking boxes. It is because people want diversity. Women and minorities want diversity. As a straight white male I want diversity. Most importantly, the overwhelming majority of creators support diversity. There is a huge demand for diversity, and so Marvel will fill it. Because that is what companies do.

EDIT: Just to preempt any complaints, when I say prejudice I mean it the literal sense of pre-judgement, not in the vague sense of bigotry in which it is often used today.

Dude, this post deserves mad likes

[ExodusCloak]

You are right to identify the problem as lying with the willing suspension of disbelief.

But here's the thing: Marvel has always been shaped by "puppetmasters." The characters aren't real, they have never not been influenced by external forces. They have always been written by writers with personal and political beliefs that inform the stories they write, and those writers have always been directed by editorial agendas, and company wide policies. Marvel has always been a business, and it has always tried to target the audience that will give it the most sales. Marvel saying "let's have more diversity" today is no more editorial meddling (significantly less in fact) than Marvel saying no homosexuality back in the days of Jim Shooter, or adhering to the Comics Code Authority.

It is not Marvel's way of telling stories that has changed; it is the fact that suddenly you find yourself disagreeing with Marvel's editorial direction. Your prejudices towards diversity prevent you from suspending disbelief, not the stories themselves.

And you ask (rhetorically) why make Iceman gay? It is not about quotas or ticking boxes. It is because people want diversity. Women and minorities want diversity. As a straight white male I want diversity. Most importantly, the overwhelming majority of creators support diversity. There is a huge demand for diversity, and so Marvel will fill it. Because that is what companies do.

EDIT: Just to preempt any complaints, when I say prejudice I mean it the literal sense of pre-judgement, not in the vague sense of bigotry in which it is often used today.

Pretty much this.