Superman TAS/ Superman Adventures overshadowed?

[DochaDocha]

Actually, I'd say Justice League was working off the X-men's blueprints and learned quite a bit from that show's mistakes.

Fortunately, the really solid seasons 2-5 of JL/JLU built off another show's mistakes. Unfortunately, that specific show appeared to be season 1 of JL.

[ShadowDemon]

Dude, really, you put a regular baseline human in a direct fight with someone like Darkseid or Mongul or Brainiac, and its not called "teamwork" its called "being a liability". Batman can throw whatever he wants at the bad guy and maybe provide a distraction (which anyone else could also do while still being more useful), but when the entire city block starts to crumble and Flash has to risk his life saving Batman's instead of helping in the fight against Darkseid, that's not "teamwork". That's Batman getting in the way and essentially becoming the sort of liability regular civilians pose. Now granted, you dont see Batman in that sort of bad light because the writers spin it that way, but really? Batman's skills are wasted in fights like this and he's putting lives at risk by not using his unique skills and trying to play "I can keep up with the gods"

So we'll use your example from above. If Batman's the only guy around who can provide that distraction and the superhuman in question (here, Superman) actually needs a second or two to get their feet under them, thats one thing. That's Batman risking his life against an impossibly more powerful foe so he can give his ally the moment they need. Thats heroic. If the world's half-dozen most powerful people are all within a few feet of each other fighting the same guy, Batman has no place being there.

Which they weren't. The only JLers on hand were Supes and Bats, so yes, it was needed (and heroic).

[ShadowDemon]

Frankly, I don't like Diana with either of them. It makes her feel like she's some trophy.

It feels like somebody is trying to say that it's only natural that the top superhero gets Wonder Woman. She's just part of the title.

Rather than letting her have her own supporting characters, she becomes the supporting character to somebody else.

Honestly, I would have preferred maybe an episode spent on Batman and Superman both trying to one up the other one and impress her only for her at the end to walk away with her normal human boyfriend, leaving them both just in shock.

Odd, since it was DIANA in this case who was "hunting", not Bruce (or Clark). Like a true Amazon, she saw what she wanted and set out to get it. Their relationship was VERY "slow burn", and we never really saw them get together (if they ever did).

[ShadowDemon]

Anyway. Wasn't Superman seriously nerfed in the first season? And what was up with making him look old?

To an extent, and Timm admitted it in the interviews on the DVDs.

JL/U on the other hand, even outside of Superman's bad portrayal, I think is probably the most overrated DC animated show. Its just nothing special as far as I'm concerned. Young Justice owns it, imo. I mean, there is not one character portrayal in JL that I think, man, I'd love to see THAT in the comics.

Huntress, Question, Hawkgirl, Booster Gold, John Stewart, Vixen, Green Arrow, Black Canary...I can keep going...

[Ascended]

Which they weren't. The only JLers on hand were Supes and Bats, so yes, it was needed (and heroic).

Hey, one scene where it works out. That's great. But Batman's treatment (or rather, the way everyone else was treated around him) was still an issue, and the pages of people here talking about it who agree seems to be the only proof needed to show that.

If you dont have a problem with it, cool. Lots of us do though.

[DochaDocha]

I think one of the best parts of STAS was Dana Delaney as Lois Lane. She was a better casting job than Tim Daly as Superman. I thought her delivery, combining her wry wit and genuine concern makes her the best voice of Lois Lane to date. Whenever I hear anyone say "Smallville" in a mocking tone, it always comes up short compared to Dana Delaney.

There's just this one little problem, though. It's basically the same delivery that she used as Andrea Beaumont, so whenever I hear Delaney's Lois, I hear Dana Delaney as Andrea Beaumont as Lois Lane.

[misslane]

Delany's Lois is one of my absolute favorites.

[Prime]

Brainiac is another strong point.

[ShadowDemon]

Hey, one scene where it works out. That's great. But Batman's treatment (or rather, the way everyone else was treated around him) was still an issue, and the pages of people here talking about it who agree seems to be the only proof needed to show that.

If you dont have a problem with it, cool. Lots of us do though.

Well, to be fair, I think I'm a little more tolerant of the basic fact that in a team book like this, esp one where the Big Guns' power levels start at "unrealistic" and quickly blow through "absurd", a modicum of "nerfing" is to be expected. It's really the only way to make such a title work.

Especially within that perspective, STAS is the best possible interpretation of Superman, since it doesn't take Superman into the realm of planet-pushing, time-reversing power levels to begin with. The "nerfing" is much less than it would be in previous incarnations.

[DochaDocha]

Brainiac is another strong point.

Definitely. I think they handled Darkseid and Orion pretty well, even if they didn't necessarily add to the mythos in a significant way.

Well, to be fair, I think I'm a little more tolerant of the basic fact that in a team book like this, esp one where the Big Guns' power levels start at "unrealistic" and quickly blow through "absurd", a modicum of "nerfing" is to be expected. It's really the only way to make such a title work.

Especially within that perspective, STAS is the best possible interpretation of Superman, since it doesn't take Superman into the realm of planet-pushing, time-reversing power levels to begin with. The "nerfing" is much less than it would be in previous incarnations.

The funny thing, though, is that Superman was at his most powerful on seasons 2-5 of the JL cartoon, and far more powerful than in his original show. Also, it's important to note that not only did Superman get a huge power boost for season 2, the show also vastly improved, and not entirely coincidentally, either.

One thing that always rubbed me the wrong way about DCAU was that Superman was pretty weak in his own show, then the Batman Beyond episode "The Call" featured a far more powerful Superman (similar to seasons 2-5 of the JL cartoon), and then when Superman re-appeared in season 1 of JL, he was pitifully weak again. It was as though the writers of the show were saying they can only show Superman as powerful if he's the bad guy, and if he's the good guy, then everything has to be so difficult. Boooo....

[ShadowDemon]

Definitely. I think they handled Darkseid and Orion pretty well, even if they didn't necessarily add to the mythos in a significant way.

Not much of an Orion fan, but OMG...Darkseid! Timm has given me at least two "definitive" portrayals of DC characters: Batman and Darkseid! I want to add Luthor and make it three, but I also have a great fondness for John Shea's take on Lex. Likewise I can't decide between Timmverse and Chris Reeve's incarnations of Superman.

I will say that Superman under Timm is about where he needs to be in terms of overall power. Tough enough to be the world's single greatest hero w/o becoming so overpowered everyone else might as well retire.

The funny thing, though, is that Superman was at his most powerful on seasons 2-5 of the JL cartoon, and far more powerful than in his original show. Also, it's important to note that not only did Superman get a huge power boost for season 2, the show also vastly improved, and not entirely coincidentally, either.

One thing that always rubbed me the wrong way about DCAU was that Superman was pretty weak in his own show, then the Batman Beyond episode "The Call" featured a far more powerful Superman (similar to seasons 2-5 of the JL cartoon), and then when Superman re-appeared in season 1 of JL, he was pitifully weak again. It was as though the writers of the show were saying they can only show Superman as powerful if he's the bad guy, and if he's the good guy, then everything has to be so difficult. Boooo....

You contradict yourself. You say that the writers unduly "nerfed" Supes all the time, but you admit that he was portrayed powerfully in BB and JL seasons 2-5...which is it? Timm already admitted they had a few "settling in adjustments" to make during JL season 1, which makes it the out-lier presentation in an otherwise consistent portrayal.

[DochaDocha]

You contradict yourself. You say that the writers unduly "nerfed" Supes all the time, but you admit that he was portrayed powerfully in BB and JL seasons 2-5...which is it? Timm already admitted they had a few "settling in adjustments" to make during JL season 1, which makes it the out-lier presentation in an otherwise consistent portrayal.

Um, no. I never said the writers unduly nerfed Superman all the time. I make it clear: he's clearly more powerful in seasons 2-5 and the BB episode than he is in TAS and season 1 of JL. It was nice seeing a more powerful Supes in BB, but then it's kind of sad when you realize they only did it because he's the villain.

Also, JL season 1 power level is only an outlier compared to seasons 2-5. It's actually fairly consistent with TAS; even a staff member admitted to this in an interview. The big difference was that Superman got knocked around in TAS all the time, but nobody else was there to pick up the slack. In JL season 1, Superman would get knocked around, and then someone else would save the day.