Magic in Marvel

[shades of eternity]

I am curious in the magical aspects of marvel and am curious where to start for info.

which comics define how magic works in the marvel universe?

Which characters define the concepts?

What are the rules of magic, artifacts, and dimensions that affect the storytelling?

which inspirations were used for Marvel Magic, I remember hearing a while back how doctor strange was influenced by old school dnd and seeing if there are others.

thanks all.

[Ravin' Ray]

We'd be hard-put to name someone out of Strange's circle who've had a strong an influence in defining Marvel magic. The Fantastic Four had a go at it with Agatha Harkness and the New Salemites, but their usage is limited. For me, they, as well as others like Daimon Hellstrom and Brother Voodoo define subcategories of magic and don't represent it as a whole.

On the side, if you do an image search for the Eye of Agamotto you'll see it was inspired by the real-world Eye of Buddha.

Now, for those of you who have looked at the picture of this charm and thought, "Haven't i seen this somewhere else before?" -- the answer is, "Yes, you have!"

In 1963 the comic book artist Steve Ditko, working in association with a writer called Stan Lee, created a superheroic magical sorcerer character called Dr. Strange, whose adventures were published by Marvel Comics in serial form in "Strange Tales." Ditko obviously had done at least some casual curio-shop research into the lore and legends of the Himalayas, where Dr. Strange was said to have studied the Mystic Arts, because in addition to a recognizable Tibetan dorje (thunderbolt) -- called the "Wand of Watoomb" by the scripter Stan Lee -- he also prominently depicted a completely recognizable version of the Eye of Buddha charm.

[Lucena Soares]

Loki: Agent of Asgard has a good focus on what you are looking for. It's the best explanation for natural magic in the MU, there are also those who receive magical powers from objects/entities/dimensions but those also fit in the "Storyteller magic" theory.

[Clea]

I am curious in the magical aspects of marvel and am curious where to start for info.

which comics define how magic works in the marvel universe?

Which characters define the concepts?

What are the rules of magic, artifacts, and dimensions that affect the storytelling?

which inspirations were used for Marvel Magic, I remember hearing a while back how doctor strange was influenced by old school dnd and seeing if there are others.

thanks all.

The Doctor Strange comics (starting in Strange Tales) pre-date D&D by over a decade. Marvel magic isn't really influenced by D&D. I think it's more fair to say that Marvel and D&D both were influenced by standard fantasy tropes involving sorcerers, gods, spells, and amulets. There are aspects of European ceremonial magic and high fantasy. Marvel magic, at least so far as Dr. Strange is concerned, was also influenced by a fantasy version of Eastern mysticism. A lot of readers (and Marvel writers and editors apparently) think that Marvel magic didn't have any rules, but it always did. Magicians/sorcerers invoke the power of other dimensional spiritual entities (gods, demons, beings of pure magical energy), and then channel the magic energies of these beings to cast spells. Magic users (and or these other-worldly beings) can imbue items with magic energies and then use the items to focus/channel their spells and will to perform acts such as blasting, mind reading, teleportation, etc. Magic users have to study and focus their minds and will in order to perform magic. Someone typically can't just pick up a spell book and start performing magic. People who do that sort of thing typically risk great danger, since the gods/demons that are invoked expect loyalty and some sort of payback in return. Some magic users such as Dr. Voodoo or Daimon Hellstrom are acolytes of specific pantheons of gods or realms. Some others may focus on specific types of magic (chaos magic for example) and become quite specialized and powerful. Others, such as the Sorcerer Supreme, usually will invoke the power of many different pantheons and become experienced in many different styles of magic. The Sorcerer Supreme isn't just the most powerful, experienced magic user in the Marvel Universe. This character is also the protector of the earth dimension from malign magic users and entities. The various gods in the Marvel Universe such as the Vishanti, are almost constantly in a state of war or else in a sort of balance of power/terror with each other. The Sorcerer Supreme acts as the champion of many of these powers who are aligned against some of the other more aggressive, malign powers such as Dormammu.

[Deniz Camp]

Since there are no absolute rules of magic in the real world - just varying systems of magic, all of them invented - there are no hard rules for magic int he Marvel universe.

But the better question is, are rules a necessary or desirable element of magical stories?

I can see why some might feel that they are, and some stories have used them to great effect, but for me it defeats the purpose.

[Radix]

Since there are no absolute rules of magic in the real world - just varying systems of magic, all of them invented - there are no hard rules for magic int he Marvel universe.

But the better question is, are rules a necessary or desirable element of magical stories?

I can see why some might feel that they are, and some stories have used them to great effect, but for me it defeats the purpose.

How so? All magic in other fiction and in real life has rules. Magic has never been about breaking rules. It was more about ceremonies and incantations. You did something in a certain order, and then the crops grow. Or you get a fireball. etc.

[Deniz Camp]

Not all magical system have rules that are concrete, or fathomable. The rules of magic in, say, Sandman are amorphous; they exist, but such that we never quite grasp them. Magic is a tool through which to explore the interior world of the characters. Gillen's Journey Into Mystery has a similar system.

Reducing magic to a system of hard, easily defined rules turns it into a science. That is very uninteresting to me; if you do that, you may as well just make your story one of science fiction.

[ed2962]

My understanding was that an editor at Marvel ( Mark Gruewald??) actually wrote a rule book for magic in the Marvel universe, but modern creators haven't read/don't follow it.

Many fans have pointed to the infamous Dr Strange line about "there is no Choas magic" when he himself has used Choas Magic. Dan Slott corrected that but still...

[Clea]

My understanding was that an editor at Marvel ( Mark Gruewald??) actually wrote a rule book for magic in the Marvel universe, but modern creators haven't read/don't follow it.

Many fans have pointed to the infamous Dr Strange line about "there is no Choas magic" when he himself has used Choas Magic. Dan Slott corrected that but still...

When you have dozens of different people who have varying knowledge of the characters, you're bound to end up with uneven, contradictory, and sometimes just dumb stories. In this particular case, the writer wanted to use Dr. Strange as a character in his story, but apparently he had little knowledge of Strange's backstory. I don't think that these sorts of goofs can be used as evidence that Marvel magic has no rules. It's merely evidence that not all writers are well versed in all of the characters.

[ed2962]

When you have dozens of different people who have varying knowledge of the characters, you're bound to end up with uneven, contradictory, and sometimes just dumb stories. In this particular case, the writer wanted to use Dr. Strange as a character in his story, but apparently he had little knowledge of Strange's backstory. I don't think that these sorts of goofs can be used as evidence that Marvel magic has no rules. It's merely evidence that not all writers are well versed in all of the characters.

Sure. My point wasn't that Marvel magic doesn't have rules, but that not everyone is aware that there might be rules. Plus the writer in question is notorious for ignoring continuity/past characterizations of heroes....

[Captain Zolalnadia]

I kinda like how it was defined in Loki AoA where magic is just forcing a narrative on reality.

[Lee Stone]

The Realms of Magic Sourcebook defined and explained Marvel Magic so well that I couldn't see a reason not to use that as a foundation.
And it, itself, was pretty consistent with the comics from the '60s thru the '80s as it was pretty well researched.
If Marvel's gonna cherry pick things, especially as far as Dr. Strange and magic goes, there's really nothing after the mid-'90s to keep anyway.