My 0.02 on the Gwen/MJ debate

[Ozymandias]

About ASM #42.

Gwen decides to play the jealousy card, after failing at being nice. Even Flash notices her interest in Peter, but the guy is the biggest schmuck to ever walk the earth (616). This setup will be used as a story plot, to encourage Peter into dating Mary Jane for a while. Many MJ fans say she came before Gwen, because of this brief adventure (?), but even if she dated the main character earlier, it was only due to her being more forward and Gwen being "unavailable".

About Mary Jane, a brief commentary. I don't even remember, when was the first time I saw a thought balloon over her head. On the other hand, we had a direct line into Gwen's thinking from day one.

The other aspect to notice here, is that Romita keeps drawing her in different ways, as if trying to define her. It will still take him more than a year, to get to the final draft. Some will see this as a bad sign, as the markings of a clumsy developed character, what I see is a lot of work put into her creation. While MJ was defined in one panel, both appearance and behavior, Gwen took a lot of effort. Some people prefer that which is earned, others find it more desirable to just "hit the jackpot".

[RobertMacQuarrie1]

I think it's less of not appreciating an "earned" characterization and more about the fact that the character went through a complete 180 on her personality, to the point where she was almost an entirely different person from when she was introduced.

It seems less "earned" and more "forceably changed to fit a determined role."

[Confuzzled]

I think it's less of not appreciating an "earned" characterization and more about the fact that the character went through a complete 180 on her personality, to the point where she was almost an entirely different person from when she was introduced.

It seems less "earned" and more "forceably changed to fit a determined role."

True. She was watered down from her Ditko characterization to provide a foil to MJ. That's hardly "a lot of work".

[RobertMacQuarrie1]

True. She was watered down from her Ditko characterization to provide a foil to MJ. That's hardly "a lot of work".

It was less of a "Making her a foil" and more "Taking elements that were appealing in MJ and then transposing them over to Gwen in order to make her more popular with the readers."

[KC Boyle]

This point is especially ironic considering MJ developed organically as a character independently from Peter, And Gwen was created to be his love interest from her first issue. If anyone "earned" anything it's Mary Jane. What exactly did Gwen "earn"?

[RobertMacQuarrie1]

This point is especially ironic considering MJ developed organically as a character independently from Peter, And Gwen was created to be his love interest from her first issue. If anyone "earned" anything it's Mary Jane. What exactly did Gwen "earn"?

Revisionist history.

[Scott Taylor]

It was less of a "Making her a foil" and more "Taking elements that were appealing in MJ and then transposing them over to Gwen in order to make her more popular with the readers."

And, at the same time, changing MJ's hairstyle to that awful housemarm look. Reading through the Romita era, it really does seem like none of the creative team expected MJ to be a popular character and it seemed like they had standing order to push Gwen, Gwen, Gwen. The era, though, was right during women's lib and MJ was the better representative of that than Gwen, by a huge margin. MJ also had a much better introduction than Gwen did during Ditko.

Gwen took alot of effort to develop because the creative team put alot of effort into developing her. In the end both girls were pretty vapid during the Romita era. Conway really fleshed them out. Well, ok, the one that he left alive.

[Probalus]

And, at the same time, changing MJ's hairstyle to that awful housemarm look. Reading through the Romita era, it really does seem like none of the creative team expected MJ to be a popular character and it seemed like they had standing order to push Gwen, Gwen, Gwen. The era, though, was right during women's lib and MJ was the better representative of that than Gwen, by a huge margin. MJ also had a much better introduction than Gwen did during Ditko.

Mary Jane wasn't fully introduced until the Romita era, and her personality wasn't developed until then too. One can say her personality was basically developed to be a foil for Gwen... The prototypical party girl vs the faithful girlfriend that was pretty commonplace in the 60's.

As far as the claims that Gwen's personality made a 180 degree change when Romita came aboard... That was part of a much better shift throughout the title. Not only did Gwen made a 180, Peter made a 180 too, as did Harry Osborn and a few other characters at the time. Peter was transformed from a geeky loner who never had any time to socialize to a superstud alpha male with a bunch of females chasing after him in a span of a few issues, Harry turned from a rival and a bully type to best friend in even less time. So I think I don't think anyone can derive any meaning from that personality shift other than that the direction of the title was completely changed when Ditko left.

Gwen took alot of effort to develop because the creative team put alot of effort into developing her. In the end both girls were pretty vapid during the Romita era. Conway really fleshed them out. Well, ok, the one that he left alive.

I see both characters as victims of circumstance. Gwen was developed as a one-dimensional 1960's era girlfriend type, while Mary Jane was developed as a slang-talking party girl type who was just as one-dimensional and just as cliched. However, Gwen's relationship with Peter developed way too fast (IIRC creators were talking about how the next step would have been marriage, but the books were definitely not ready for that) and her personality was getting a bit outdated with the sexual revolution of the late 60s and early 70s, while Mary Jane had a lot more room to develop at the time.

Coincidentally Mary Jane started her road towards being fully formed character the issue after Gwen died, when she showed that she had another side to her that was different than the one-dimensional party girl we had been seeing in the scene where she comforted Peter... So really, I think the arguments over who is a better character can be summed up in a few words - the one who actually got the chance to become a better character.

[RobertMacQuarrie1]

Mary Jane wasn't fully introduced until the Romita era, and her personality wasn't developed until then too. One can say her personality was basically developed to be a foil for Gwen... The prototypical party girl vs the faithful girlfriend that was pretty commonplace in the 60's.

As far as the claims that Gwen's personality made a 180 degree change when Romita came aboard... That was part of a much better shift throughout the title. Not only did Gwen made a 180, Peter made a 180 too, as did Harry Osborn and a few other characters at the time. Peter was transformed from a geeky loner who never had any time to socialize to a superstud alpha male with a bunch of females chasing after him in a span of a few issues, Harry turned from a rival and a bully type to best friend in even less time. So I think I don't think anyone can derive any meaning from that personality shift other than that the direction of the title was completely changed when Ditko left.

But it's hardly character growth as was being argued, or earned development.

The character's softened considerably once Ditko left. But Gwen was the character that was hit the worst, becoming practically a brand new character in the process.

I see both characters as victims of circumstance. Gwen was developed as a one-dimensional 1960's era girlfriend type, while Mary Jane was developed as a slang-talking party girl type who was just as one-dimensional and just as cliched. However, Gwen's relationship with Peter developed way too fast (IIRC creators were talking about how the next step would have been marriage, but the books were definitely not ready for that) and her personality was getting a bit outdated with the sexual revolution of the late 60s and early 70s, while Mary Jane had a lot more room to develop at the time.

We have to remember that Peter was allowed to be depicted a lot older back then, given the fact that the stories at points were treated as happening in almost real time, and that people did get married a lot young back then.

Coincidentally Mary Jane started her road towards being fully formed character the issue after Gwen died, when she showed that she had another side to her that was different than the one-dimensional party girl we had been seeing in the scene where she comforted Peter... So really, I think the arguments over who is a better character can be summed up in a few words - the one who actually got the chance to become a better character.

But the reason one of those characters got that chance was they had room to grow as a character, and one didn't. Not without becoming another character entirely. For the second time.

[Probalus]

But it's hardly character growth as was being argued, or earned development.

My point is everyone important to the book got hit with the same drastic changes. Gwen wasn't the only one. And I simply don't see why Gwen is being specifically singled out for changing when others, including the main character of the book, was completely different before and after.

Case in point...

The character's softened considerably once Ditko left. But Gwen was the character that was hit the worst, becoming practically a brand new character in the process.

I don't know how you qualify "hit the worst" in this case. Gwen was a one dimensional character before the change and after the change. SAME as Harry Osborn. SAME as Flash. The same would probably have happened to MJ had she actually been a real character under Ditko and not a running gag of a mysterious character with a flower covering her face

And Peter Parker softened so much that he was practically a different character, and considering he was a main character and received the bulk of the characterization before this, that was tough to swallow. Not that it was a necessarily bad thing though. I thought the softening of the characters was one of the best things to happen to the book during this era. Peter's continued isolation was pretty depressing at times, and got a bit repetitive and old, and the fact that he now had a group of friends was a very good thing, and his supporting cast was never stronger than during this era.

We have to remember that Peter was allowed to be depicted a lot older back then, given the fact that the stories at points were treated as happening in almost real time, and that people did get married a lot young back then.

The point was that Marvel wasn't ready for Peter to get married at the time. Heck one could argue that even the MJ marriage wouldn't have happened if Stan Lee didn't push for it so the Marvel Universe would sync up with his comic strip, and editors spent the next 20 years trying to undo it.

But the reason one of those characters got that chance was they had room to grow as a character, and one didn't. Not without becoming another character entirely. For the second time.

Mary Jane became another character under Gerry Conway's pen, and her characterization has evolved several time since then such that she's practically a completely different character today. But either way Conway was the guy who basically established the old MJ as a mask that she was hiding under. And that's a testament to how thinly her character was written under Stan Lee that someone can just write her personality off like that.

The underlying point in my post is that the Stan Lee stuff wasn't exactly great to ANY character. His characterizations had always been archaic, thin, and one-dimensional and most of the character development for practically all of the characters in the Marvel Universe happened after the 70's when comics became a more mature medium and writers began to experiment more. But Gwen's problem was by the time the 70's hit, she was already dead. That's not a issue with her as a character, that's an issue of the period of time she spent alive and active in the mainstream Marvel comics. One can only wonder what direction her character could have gone had she remained alive.

I mean, other 60's female comic characters with similar archetypes all evolved into much deeper, and different characters eventually.

[RobertMacQuarrie1]

My point is everyone important to the book got hit with the same drastic changes. Gwen wasn't the only one. And I simply don't see why Gwen is being specifically singled out for changing when others, including the main character of the book, was completely different before and after.

Mostly because those who try to defend Gwen's character change argue that was development, whereas they are usually the first ones to deride the changes MJ went through as forceful changes.

It seems a little strange that the change Gwen goes through doesn't get the same sort of derision that MJ's development got.

I don't know how you qualify "hit the worst" in this case. Gwen was a one dimensional character before the change and after the change. SAME as Harry Osborn. SAME as Flash. The same would probably have happened to MJ had she actually been a real character under Ditko and not a running gag of a mysterious character with a flower covering her face

And Peter Parker softened so much that he was practically a different character, and considering he was a main character and received the bulk of the characterization before this, that was tough to swallow. Not that it was a necessarily bad thing though. I thought the softening of the characters was one of the best things to happen to the book during this era. Peter's continued isolation was pretty depressing at times, and got a bit repetitive and old, and the fact that he now had a group of friends was a very good thing, and his supporting cast was never stronger than during this era.

Gwen is a different case, though. This is a woman who laughed at Peter for not being manly, and was practically as cruel to him as Flash Thompson, to someone who would break into tears over the thought that he was late/ absent for a party. And there is no explanation given for this radical personality shift.

Mary Jane became another character under Gerry Conway's pen, and her characterization has evolved several time since then such that she's practically a completely different character today. But either way Conway was the guy who basically established the old MJ as a mask that she was hiding under. And that's a testament to how thinly her character was written under Stan Lee that someone can just write her personality off like that.

Or that's just a good way to develop a character.

With MJ, we get to see her go through her personality change. It doesn't happen overnight, and it doesn't happen without reason. And she doesn't become a completely new character. She kept a lot of her personality that she had from the beginning, even today.

She may have had a thin personality- as did most characters back then- but she had a defined personality. Gwen didn't, hence why she went through so many radical changes in a short period of time.

The underlying point in my post is that the Stan Lee stuff wasn't exactly great to ANY character. His characterizations had always been archaic, thin, and one-dimensional and most of the character development for practically all of the characters in the Marvel Universe happened after the 70's when comics became a more mature medium and writers began to experiment more. But Gwen's problem was by the time the 70's hit, she was already dead. That's not a issue with her as a character, that's an issue of the period of time she spent alive and active in the mainstream Marvel comics. One can only wonder what direction her character could have gone had she remained alive.

Right. But we can't assume that if Gwen wouldn't have died she would have had the same personality development that MJ had. It's not an either/ or scenario. It wasn't that MJ got to develop because Gwen wasn't around. It was that MJ could develop further because she had room to develop, whereas Gwen didn't.

I mean, other 60's female comic characters with similar archetypes all evolved into much deeper, and different characters eventually.

So did most male characters. As stories went on their characters deepened and became more fleshed out. It doesn't mean that Gwen would have had a stronger personality or the same sort of development that MJ had, just as Flash or Liz Allen didn't have the same development that MJ got.

[Probalus]

Mostly because those who try to defend Gwen's character change argue that was development, whereas they are usually the first ones to deride the changes MJ went through as forceful changes.

It seems a little strange that the change Gwen goes through doesn't get the same sort of derision that MJ's development got.

Uh... I don't think there's a person who read the books who disagree that Gwen's change was abrupt, and there's been plenty of things written about that. I don't know where you get the idea that Gwen doesn't get that criticism. Gerry Conway's feelings about Gwen and his reasons for killing her is well documented.

Gwen is a different case, though. This is a woman who laughed at Peter for not being manly, and was practically as cruel to him as Flash Thompson, to someone who would break into tears over the thought that he was late/ absent for a party. And there is no explanation given for this radical personality shift.

I don't disagree that she changed. My point is so did everyone else. You keep coming back to me with the same argument but you haven't said how I was wrong that others' changes were just as bad.

Harry Osborn turned from utterly hating Peter's guts one issue to apologizing and quickly becoming his best friend in a span of 2 issues. Come on, man.

Or that's just a good way to develop a character.

You think? I don't know why you are responding to my posts if you keep ignoring my points. Yes, she's developed. SHE'S HAD CLOSE TO 50 YEARS TO DO IT, OF COURSE SHE WOULD!

With MJ, we get to see her go through her personality change. It doesn't happen overnight, and it doesn't happen without reason. And she doesn't become a completely new character. She kept a lot of her personality that she had from the beginning, even today.

OK, but again, SHE'S HAD 50 YEARS TO DO IT.

She may have had a thin personality- as did most characters back then- but she had a defined personality. Gwen didn't, hence why she went through so many radical changes in a short period of time.

Right. But we can't assume that if Gwen wouldn't have died she would have had the same personality development that MJ had. It's not an either/ or scenario. It wasn't that MJ got to develop because Gwen wasn't around. It was that MJ could develop further because she had room to develop, whereas Gwen didn't.

No, its because MJ HAD 50 YEARS TO DEVELOP. Gwen Stacy was almost entirely written by Stan Lee, who was NEVER a good character writer, in a span of EIGHT years, so of course MJ is going to have way better development. It's silly to make this comparison.

So did most male characters. As stories went on their characters deepened and became more fleshed out. It doesn't mean that Gwen would have had a stronger personality or the same sort of development that MJ had, just as Flash or Liz Allen didn't have the same development that MJ got.

I think Flash has had pretty strong development overall. The only thing that detracted from his character development was bad writers causing bad character regression.

But that's the point. When you're married to a character and the character has like a comic book coming out every week for 3 straight decades, OF COURSE you're going to have strong character development. MJ vs Gwen is not a fair comparison, plain and simple.

[Confuzzled]

Neither MJ or Gwen had the most complex of personalities during Stan's run. But there's no denying that MJ was definitely the more unique, fun and interesting personality at the time. Who else was like her in comics at the time? Meanwhile, Gwen was just another product off the assembly-line of stereotypical Silver Age love interests.

[Scott Taylor]

Coincidentally Mary Jane started her road towards being fully formed character the issue after Gwen died, when she showed that she had another side to her that was different than the one-dimensional party girl we had been seeing in the scene where she comforted Peter... So really, I think the arguments over who is a better character can be summed up in a few words - the one who actually got the chance to become a better character.

Absolutely. Well said!

[Kevinroc]

No, its because MJ HAD 50 YEARS TO DEVELOP. Gwen Stacy was almost entirely written by Stan Lee, who was NEVER a good character writer, in a span of EIGHT years, so of course MJ is going to have way better development. It's silly to make this comparison.

I don't know why you're throwing Stan under the bus like this. Stan Lee changed the way characterization in comics was done.