My 0.02 on the Gwen/MJ debate

[Mister Mets]

Did it? Did it make it possible?

I was referring to Lee and Romita's run. Later stories had more contradictions, especially in the satellite books, but these stories weren't as well-known as the first hundred issues of Amazing Spider-Man, which were also reprinted in more places.

Which fits in with the retcon that she was never completely sure that Peter was Spider-Man.

The only thing that doesn't fit is the last thought balloon, and that can just be explained away by saying that MJ was just telling herself that, trying to convince herself Peter- the person she came to care about- wasn't Spider-Man and wasn't constantly risking his life.

Parallel Lives didn't leave much ambiguity on whether MJ knew Peter was Spider-Man.

[RobertMacQuarrie1]

Parallel Lives didn't leave much ambiguity on whether MJ knew Peter was Spider-Man.

But it did establish that she had severe doubts about who he was and what his motivations might be.

[Ozymandias]

I was referring to Lee and Romita's run. Later stories had more contradictions

Ok, how about this one from ASM #43?

[RobertMacQuarrie1]

Ok, how about this one from ASM #43?

How is that contradictory?

[Ozymandias]

Or he was just treating her like every other supporting character who didn't get a though balloon, like Flash, Harry, Liz, Ned Leeds, Robbie Robertson, Aunt May....

I said "Probably all the characters, had their thoughts expressed trough thought bubbles, except maybe the most secondary ones", I didn't check, so I do it now:

• Flash and Liz were just Peter's high school bully and his girl. Lee had no plans for her, and she was written off the book as soon as high school was finished. Flash was recycled and slowly evolved, but even in his original role, he did have thoughts. Both of them did, look no further than ASM#25, for example.
• Harry was also introduced to join the social crusade against Peter, but as soon as Lee devised a different role for him, he started to "think", in ASM #39.
• Ned Leeds was certainly a very secondary character. He didn't have much personality of his own. He was just a means to getting Betty out of the picture.
• Robertson came, to fill the hole left at the Bugle, by Foswell's demise. Leeds could've been fleshed out to step up and take this new role, but Lee chose to introduce a new character. Around the time Captain Stacy made the scene, he had his first thought bubble in ASM #64. It was part of Lee's plan to form the senior Spider-man "fan club".
• Aunt May had thoughts as far back as ASM #3.

[RobertMacQuarrie1]

I said "Probably all the characters, had their thoughts expressed trough thought bubbles, except maybe the most secondary ones", I didn't check, so I do it now:

• Flash and Liz were just Peter's high school bully and his girl. Lee had no plans for her, and she was written off the book as soon as high school was finished. Flash was recycled and slowly evolved, but even in his original role, he did have thoughts. Both of them did, look no further than ASM#25, for example.
• Harry was also introduced to join the social crusade against Peter, but as soon as Lee devised a different role for him, he started to "think", in ASM #39.
• Ned Leeds was certainly a very secondary character. He didn't have much personality of his own. He was just a means to getting Betty out of the picture.
• Robertson came, to fill the hole left at the Bugle, by Foswell's demise. Leeds could've been fleshed out to step up and take this new role, but Lee chose to introduce a new character. Around the time Captain Stacy made the scene, he had his first*thought bubble in ASM #64. It was part of Lee's plan to form the senior Spider-man "fan club".
• Aunt May had thoughts as far back as ASM #3.

And as soon as a different role was assigned for MJ, her character changed as well.

Seems like she fits right in with every other character.

[namor]

Look at it this way...What had the biggest impact to the Spider-man mythos?..The Death of Gwen Stacy or The Marriage to MJ.?

[Aruran.]

Look at it this way...What had the biggest impact to the Spider-man mythos?..The Death of Gwen Stacy or The Marriage to MJ.?

It would be The Death of Gwen Stacy.
It elevated Gwen as a character, introduced a trope for comics to use for decades, and pushed Peter and MJ together.

[Scott Taylor]

The marriage to MJ had the biggest impact by far. It changed the entire face of every Spidey book for 20 years. The Death of Gwen Stacy was the better story, but it had few significant effects to the books. Stern's Hobgoblin story and the Birth of Venom had bigger long-term impacts than either the Death of Gwen Stacy or the marriage, to put it in more perspective.

[Vortex85]

Agreed. Think about it. If Marvel thought they needed OMD to "Fix" / return Peter to his roots, what does that say about the impact the marriage had on the character and the books? Gwen's death has never been needed to be undone because it doesn't have that much impact. The marriage was constantly written while Gwen's death is occasionaly referenced.

[namor]

Agreed. Think about it. If Marvel thought they needed OMD to "Fix" / return Peter to his roots, what does that say about the impact the marriage had on the character and the books? Gwen's death has never been needed to be undone because it doesn't have that much impact. The marriage was constantly written while Gwen's death is occasionaly referenced.

I feel Peter's guilt over the death of Gwen should have been as impactful as Uncle Bens' and should have been a reason not to marry MJ.
plus i started reading collecting Spidey in 69'...so to me ..the Death of Gwen was more impactful...I guess the time you started reading Spider-Man,
really is the most important reason you have the feelings toward certain characters that you do...just my .02....any thoughts?

[Aruran.]

I feel Peter's guilt over the death of Gwen should have been as impactful as Uncle Bens' and should have been a reason not to marry MJ.
plus i started reading collecting Spidey in 69'...so to me ..the Death of Gwen was more impactful...I guess the time you started reading Spider-Man,
really is the most important reason you have the feelings toward certain characters that you do...just my .02....any thoughts?

Well to be fair I was reading Ultimate Spider-Man first in 2002 and only started Amazing from 2012 onward.

But I would say Gwen's death is more impactful, because it affects both Peter and Spider-Man. The marriage only affects Peter, which is still big.
Gwen's death is probably the 2nd most defining moment in Peter's life, cause it's really the moment when he stops be a kid and has to grow up. His marriage to MJ doesn't change how Spider-Man operates, it only changes Peter.

Mary Jane is the more important character out of the two, but Gwen is up there because of what had happen to her.

[RobertMacQuarrie1]

I feel Peter's guilt over the death of Gwen should have been as impactful as Uncle Bens' and should have been a reason not to marry MJ.
plus i started reading collecting Spidey in 69'...so to me ..the Death of Gwen was more impactful...I guess the time you started reading Spider-Man,
really is the most important reason you have the feelings toward certain characters that you do...just my .02....any thoughts?

So.... under that logic, Peter should never be with anyone, ever, for the rest of his life.

[RobertMacQuarrie1]

Well to be fair I was reading Ultimate Spider-Man first in 2002 and only started Amazing from 2012 onward.

But I would say Gwen's death is more impactful, because it affects both Peter and Spider-Man. The marriage only affects Peter, which is still big.
Gwen's death is probably the 2nd most defining moment in Peter's life, cause it's really the moment when he stops be a kid and has to grow up. His marriage to MJ doesn't change how Spider-Man operates, it only changes Peter.

Mary Jane is the more important character out of the two, but Gwen is up there because of what had happen to her.

I'd argue the only reason Gwen is up there is because she died.

[Mister Mets]

How is that contradictory?

You can't take what MJ says at face value if she knows that Peter Parker is Spider-Man, and agonizes over what that means.