Billy & Teddy's Excellent Adventure: Wiccan & Hulkling Appreciation

[Cloaked]

Personally, I absolutely love their dynamic as romantic partners who also work together, loving each other while beating up bad guys together. I love their interactions on and off the battlefield, and their coupleness, as it has always been, has unending potential for stories because couples can face countless external obstacles together as a united front, supporting each other against the odds, relying on and trusting each other as worlds around them, big and small, fall apart. There are so many more adventures and trials they could continue to take on together as the team they so thoroughly are. It all means a great deal to me on a deep, personal level, and I cherish that about them.

(And I would absolutely love to see more--preferably from Ewing--of Teddy's kingly space developments, but I'd definitely want Billy there at his side (and surely he would want him there, too).)

[Bossace]

I've read billy and teddy since young avengers and I've read everything else they've been in. Fun characters to read really enjoy them. Do you think a Billy and Teddy ongoing could sell, or are they a safer sell as team books? I personally would read it but I'd hate to see it start only to not sell despite the potiental as a good story. I've enjoyed Billy in the doctor strange book and it made me wonder if they could handle their own books sales wise or if it's safer to keep them in team books that wil sell better?

[J. D. Guy]

Errrr... no. Pretty sure the first Teddy arc in the original run, the Secret Invasion tie-in, numerous parts of Gillen's run and the recent "King Arthur" story very much had Teddy as the lead.

Maybe it comes down to personal perception, but I'm of mindset that when Teddy takes the lead over Billy, it's usually comes off as the exception as opposed to the norm. At times, some of his writers don't seem to know what they want to do with him, Al Ewing being an exception during New Avengers, and so they tend to either put him in the back, or keep his story and character developments tied to Billy's. Either way, he tends to feel as if he's in Billy's shadow.

That's how it tended to come off to me, at least.

[J. D. Guy]

Hulkling showed up in U.S.Avengers #2.

What was his role?

[SonofScarlet]

What was his role?

Single panel cameo appearance. It depicted a future battle with Thanos, but there wasn't any direct reference to Hulkling and he wasn't really highlighted in any way. Just happened to be there....helping.

[Digifiend]

Yeah, he, Black Knight, and Faiza Hussein all stabbed Thanos with their swords.

[legion_quest]

Maybe it comes down to personal perception, but I'm of mindset that when Teddy takes the lead over Billy, it's usually comes off as the exception as opposed to the norm. At times, some of his writers don't seem to know what they want to do with him, Al Ewing being an exception during New Avengers, and so they tend to either put him in the back, or keep his story and character developments tied to Billy's. Either way, he tends to feel as if he's in Billy's shadow.

That's how it tended to come off to me, at least.

Agreed.

I like them both, but I really feel the best thing for both of them is some time apart.

I know people don't want that due to representation etc. but from the point of view of their characters, they could do with a bit of time apart, let them become a bit more rounded, instead of just being together. All comic book relationships that go long have times when the characters are apart. It rarely lasts, but it helps redefine them as individuals, which increases their potential use.

[Kieran_Frost]

I'd like to see him joining the Alpha Flight, cause I wanted him to interact with Carol. But Guardians would be nice too and probably make more sense.

I think Hulkling would be a good foil for a S.W.O.R.D. series, with Carol and the Ultimates.

Billy... Still expecting a decent magic book. Bad idea to make one about Sorcerer Supreme AUs.

Still in Italy, how has the series been? I got the first three issues and I did really like Billy in it, but I agree "alt-Billy" isn't going to be around after this series, so it's a shame to waste a main cast role NOT on the real Billy.

I've read billy and teddy since young avengers and I've read everything else they've been in. Fun characters to read really enjoy them. Do you think a Billy and Teddy ongoing could sell, or are they a safer sell as team books? I personally would read it but I'd hate to see it start only to not sell despite the potiental as a good story. I've enjoyed Billy in the doctor strange book and it made me wonder if they could handle their own books sales wise or if it's safer to keep them in team books that wil sell better?

I think with the right team we could get a good 15 issues, which is really all we need. I doubt the first efforts will surpass 50 issues, but I would hope for 12 - 15 (a good run for comics these days).

Maybe it comes down to personal perception, but I'm of mindset that when Teddy takes the lead over Billy, it's usually comes off as the exception as opposed to the norm. At times, some of his writers don't seem to know what they want to do with him, Al Ewing being an exception during New Avengers, and so they tend to either put him in the back, or keep his story and character developments tied to Billy's. Either way, he tends to feel as if he's in Billy's shadow.

That's how it tended to come off to me, at least.

I do think it's just your perception, because that's not what happens. Heinberg created Hulkling's history in the 3rd arc of the original Young Avengers run (and in those 12 issues, it should be noted Billy did NOT get an arc about him, only Teddy). Then we had the Civil War Runaways arc; and while both were kidnapped, we did see it from Billy's point of view (though that arc was about the team, no one person got "the arc"; and outside of one scene Wiccan doesn't do much). Next we had Secret Invasion, VERY Hulkling focused, with Billy not in it very much at all (again please note by this time Billy had STILL not had an arc about him; where as Hulkling had had got two). Then we come to Avengers: Children's Crusade. And it's Billy focused (which is fair, he hadn't had an arc); and this is where everyone's "Hulkling is only his boyfriend, he just stands there shouting "BILLY!"; Young Avengers is nothing but Wiccan!" complaints come from. I don't know if it's because it was such a big series (a lot of exposure/sales, House of M continuation, major character work for Scarlet Witch's return, Rictor gets his powers, X-men and Avengers play big roles, Doom etc) OR because the delays stretched it over almost two years? So it "felt" like Wiccan had been the focus for so long. What followed was then Gillen's Young Avengers. And while Wiccan is the "protagonist" he actually doesn't appear in a lot of it (unlike Hulkling). Hulkling gets a solo issue about him (Wiccan does not), in fact Wiccan does not actually appear in 1/3 of the run (another fact people forget). He's the catalyst, but Hulkling is actually the one who gets the focus. The break-up is from Hulkling's point of view, we see Hulkling's fallout from it, Hulkling's therapy; all this time we know nothing of how Billy is feeling. Then we have Al Ewing's run, and to be fair Hulkling got his arc, and then Billy's two parter... a) is a continuation of Hulkling's, and b) it's again really from Hulkling's point of view, Wiccan is possessed for most of it. Ewing promotes Wiccan to team leader (the first ever LGBT+ Avenger team leader) and we get one issue about it; hardly Wiccan 'central either. I feel Ewing did more for Hulkling than Wiccan.

I think ultimately Wiccan is more popular, and it is THAT that makes it feel like it's always Wiccan lead, because in the writing it's perfectly balanced.

I like them both, but I really feel the best thing for both of them is some time apart.

Okay, but with all due respect, this is an APPRECIATION thread for them AS A COUPLE! I think the LGBT+ Marvel Appreciation thread maybe a better place to discuss "they should break up". Thanks for understanding.

[Wiccan]

I think Hulkling would be a good foil for a S.W.O.R.D. series, with Carol and the Ultimates.


Still in Italy, how has the series been? I got the first three issues and I did really like Billy in it, but I agree "alt-Billy" isn't going to be around after this series, so it's a shame to waste a main cast role NOT on the real Billy.


I think with the right team we could get a good 15 issues, which is really all we need. I doubt the first efforts will surpass 50 issues, but I would hope for 12 - 15 (a good run for comics these days).


I do think it's just your perception, because that's not what happens. Heinberg created Hulkling's history in the 3rd arc of the original Young Avengers run (and in those 12 issues, it should be noted Billy did NOT get an arc about him, only Teddy). Then we had the Civil War Runaways arc; and while both were kidnapped, we did see it from Billy's point of view (though that arc was about the team, no one person got "the arc"; and outside of one scene Wiccan doesn't do much). Next we had Secret Invasion, VERY Hulkling focused, with Billy not in it very much at all (again please note by this time Billy had STILL not had an arc about him; where as Hulkling had had got two). Then we come to Avengers: Children's Crusade. And it's Billy focused (which is fair, he hadn't had an arc); and this is where everyone's "Hulkling is only his boyfriend, he just stands there shouting "BILLY!"; Young Avengers is nothing but Wiccan!" complaints come from. I don't know if it's because it was such a big series (a lot of exposure/sales, House of M continuation, major character work for Scarlet Witch's return, Rictor gets his powers, X-men and Avengers play big roles, Doom etc) OR because the delays stretched it over almost two years? So it "felt" like Wiccan had been the focus for so long. What followed was then Gillen's Young Avengers. And while Wiccan is the "protagonist" he actually doesn't appear in a lot of it (unlike Hulkling). Hulkling gets a solo issue about him (Wiccan does not), in fact Wiccan does not actually appear in 1/3 of the run (another fact people forget). He's the catalyst, but Hulkling is actually the one who gets the focus. The break-up is from Hulkling's point of view, we see Hulkling's fallout from it, Hulkling's therapy; all this time we know nothing of how Billy is feeling. Then we have Al Ewing's run, and to be fair Hulkling got his arc, and then Billy's two parter... a) is a continuation of Hulkling's, and b) it's again really from Hulkling's point of view, Wiccan is possessed for most of it. Ewing promotes Wiccan to team leader (the first ever LGBT+ Avenger team leader) and we get one issue about it; hardly Wiccan 'central either. I feel Ewing did more for Hulkling than Wiccan.

I think ultimately Wiccan is more popular, and it is THAT that makes it feel like it's always Wiccan lead, because in the writing it's perfectly balanced.


Okay, but with all due respect, this is an APPRECIATION thread for them AS A COUPLE! I think the LGBT+ Marvel Appreciation thread maybe a better place to discuss "they should break up". Thanks for understanding.

What? My memory is bad here but I thought Billy was in like all issues, maybe not the one(s) about Prodigy and Speedy. About whether the focus is on Billy or Teddy... I think that's like a Frozen situation(I just thought that cause I was debating about it on youtube lol). Like, Anna is technically the protagonist/POV character, but the story is actually all about Elsa. Anna is Teddy and Elsa is Billy in that analogy here. A better example: Dark Phoenix. All about Jean but Scott is more like the protagonist in some way.

Also: Billy concept art for Avengers Academy:

They said he and Teddy are both coming on a Young Avengers event! https://news.marvel.com/games/59095/...-concept-hero/

[Beaubier]

I also want them to take some time apart. From the very beginning their characters have rarely had stories where they're apart from each other, especially Teddy. Teddy especially needs some character development away from Billy.

[Cloaked]

Yeah, it's been more toward even-ish than many seem to remember, although Billy is very obviously more popular, and the fact that Teddy was the first of them to get his own arc (and in the first series, at that) seems to be forgotten surprisingly often. And I don't think they are unknown or undeveloped as individuals, either... They have their own personalities and backstories and they know who they are... Also, just gotta say the New Avengers arc was a very well done shared story between them, which Ewing wove together beautifully in a tale of fantasy and destiny and emotional darkness and light. It wasn't that it started out as Teddy's story and then Billy came along and stole it. Just because a story about Teddy pulls in his love for Billy doesn't mean it's not at all his story anymore, not when we already know who he is as a person. Their stories are going to affect each other because they are very important parts of each other's lives, and when Teddy's kidnapped or Billy's in danger or something good happens for either of them, they're not going to not be there, being involved and affected.


Man, I know I seem to be an outlier on this, but all the wanting them to break up, even temporarily, just kills me inside (and not at all in the "ooo, yes, gimme that drama that hurts!" way)... I've been a huge, huge fan of them for very nearly a decade, and I love them as a unit, as an awesome duo. I want to see them continue to get their individual developments while they're with each other, learning and growing side by side as witnesses to and players in each other's stories. I haven't cared about any Marvel characters as much as I do about them, not even the ones I loved back as a kid.


All right, maybe I should be quiet now. Admittedly, posting is still scary for this forum newbie, heh...

[John Ossie]

It's okay Cloaked, we were all newbies at some point on this forum welcome to the forums. And I agree about Hulkling and Wiccan being a great couple. It's always nice to see two people who love each other as much they do.

[Cloaked]

Aw, thanks for the nice welcome and the agreement.

[John Ossie]

No worries

[ChronoRogue]

I do not want them to break-up, like at all, but I'm completely fine with them being on different teams. They do need to interact with people that is not each other sometimes.

Teddy should join GoG (ideally when his sister is also on the team) and Wiccan can join the main Avengers team or UA (if it doesn't end up completely cancelled and instead gets revamped).