Avengers Undercover #5 *Spoilers and Thoughts*

[Nelson]

We really didn't read the same Runaways, didn't we?

Apparently we didn't.

Volume 2 was a generic boring mess.

And for me it was great story which is actually driven by the characters. I'm more interested in characters than plot (I hate Jonathan Hickman's books). Vol.2 tops vol.1 on the basis that Nico & others are more developed and interesting. Nico as team mom and caring, but still inexperienced leader is much better than Nico as scared love interest for Alex. And on completely different plane of reality than Hopeless' another, generic Raven clone who is constantly angsting about her DAAARK powers and AAANGER and trying to keep DARKNESS inside her in check. And just to be clear, I love Raven.

I'm more interested in Nico and Chase in a way that I wasn't since issue 30 of Runaways

And I feel any good story potential they had had been destroyed and what I found appealing in them is long gone.
And no, I see no potential in them becoming villains, because a) it's determinism (your parents were evil then no matter what you do sooner or later you are going to turn evil) and I find that to be utter bullmanure b) I feel it's disrespectfull to works of BKV c) It's insulting to people with PTSD because no, they are not more likely to become criminals and it's disgusting to imply that and d) Chase as a villain sound completely boring on every level, and there already exists character who I feel is like evil version of Nico (granted, not in MU and with different magic) so I'm not interested in seeing that again.

And Academy crossed the line between "Lighthearted" and "Stupid genre blindness" way to often, not to mention many of it's attemps at comedy falled into awkwardness (Laura's introduction in issue 23). THe characters were fine, but the narrative felt tone deaf.

I'll take Gage's forced humor and akwardness over Hopeless forced drama, that is much more unconvincing and feels much more fake. Scenes where Mettle comforts crying Hazmat for me seem much mroe true than everything Hopeless did in his both series so far, especially lines like "Juston is dead. - Oh." or "MY BOYFRIEND EXPLODED ALL OVER ME!". Hopeless had much bigger affinity for TELLING instead of SHOWING and to the point I personally consider an insult to the graphic storytelling. I feel somebody like Felippe Smith, who I adore for his ability to SHOW by NOT TELLING would be much better to handle any story than Hopeless. Which is why I, loving Nico as one of my favorite characters and having no interest in Ghost Rider before, don't buy Avengers Undercover but buy All-New Ghost Rider.

[javi150190]

Apparently we didn't.



And for me it was great story which is actually driven by the characters. I'm more interested in characters than plot (I hate Jonathan Hickman's books). Vol.2 tops vol.1 on the basis that Nico & others are more developed and interesting. Nico as team mom and caring, but still inexperienced leader than another, generic Raven clone who is angsting and trying to keep DARKNESS inside her in check. And jsut to be clear, I love Raven.



And I feel any good story potential they had had been destroyed and what I found appealing in them is long gone.
And no, I see no potentian in them becoming villains, because a) it's determinism (your parents were evil then no matter what you do you are sooner or later going to be evil) and I find that to be utter bullmanure b) I feel it's disrespectfull to works of BKV and c) there already exists character who I feel is like evil version of Nico (granted, not in MU and with different magic) so I'm not interested in seeing that again.



I'll take Gage's forced akwardness over Hopeless forced drama, that is much more unconvincing and feels much more fake. Scenes where Mettle comforts crying Hazmat for me seem much mroe true than everything Hopeless did in his both series so far, especially lines like "Juston is dead. - Oh." or "MY BOYFRIEND EXPLODED ALL OVER ME!". Hopeless had much bigger affinity for TELLING instead of SHOWING and to the point I personally consider an insult to the graphic storytelling. I feel somebody like Felippe Smith, who I adore for his ability to SHOW by NOT TELLING would be much better to handle any story than Hopeless. Which is why I, loving Nico as one of my favorite characters and having no interest in Ghost Rider before, don't buy Avengers Undercover but buy All-New Ghost Rider.

I want to be interested in All-new Ghost rider, I really do, but my first introduction to the concept was...I think you know the answer. I sincerely feel bad for having that mindset and I hope I can change that in the nerby future.

Gage never convinced me, nor comedically nor dramatically. One thing that I loved about Kyle and Yost "New X-Men", and by extention "Runaways", is that it managed to be both gleeful and grim at the same time. And one thing that I loved about Arena, despite having my share of problems with the way it treated Laura as a literal plot devise, is that the kids were actively trying to outsmart Arcade, and even now they believe they can still be heroes. Despite it's grim setting, Undercover has underlining optimism about wanting to stick with the good side (Nico worried about becoming like her parents, Hazmat proposing a way out of the Zemo deal), and while is all about trowing obstacles at them, they still don't give up. That's reason why this is my favorite Marvel book right now.

[Nelson]

Well, then we have to disagree, because I don't see a single ounce of optimism in a single page of Arena or Undercover. What does it matter than kids triedto outsmart Arcade when plto bent over backwards to not let them to the point of ridiculousnes (I mean, nanomachiens, that cannot surive high or low temepratures, stopping magic? Bull), the only time they get upper hand is when he handles it over to them with his bottomless stupidity and despite that in the end they still give in and he gets the last laugh. There is no optimism here, it's cynicism on the level of Ned Stark's story arc if Game of Thrones - no matter what they do they are destined to fail, their stuggle is utterly pointless and only make thigns worse. But at least Ned Stark was defeated by his own shortcoming and prejuices, not because writer wanted Geoffrey to win*. There is no optimism here, not at all. I've seen more optimism in Berserk, one of darkest if not the darkest thigns I've ever read. At least there is always the feeling Guts will win in the end, even through it doesn't look possible at this point. And so far Undercover provided only more of the same life-denying, juvenile cynicism, of worldview where compassion is a weakness and you become strongest by abbandonning it, and what you mentioned also sounds as only more of the same pointless struggle that is destined to fail (granted I doubt Nico will turn evil, but only because of how hamfisted all the "hints" she might are- even Scooby Doo wouldn't go for such obvious "twist"). It doesn't matter if they don't give up - if they're still going to fail, there is nothing optimistic about it. That's why manga like Berserk is more optimsitic because Guts at least scores few victories against overwhelming forces of evil.

And last of all, the "struggle to stay a hero" is the reason I hate Spider-Man and Captain America - in Maximum Carnage they were faced with the same struggle and the result was they sacrificed innocent lives to remain "pure". I think you can imagine how thrilled I am by perspective of characters I love either becoming the same kind of hipocritical, holier-than-thou bastards I despise or villains. If you cannot, here is a hint: Not at all!
These kinds of stories are NEVER done good in comics. At least I had never seen one. It always boils down to protagonists being more worried about keeping their sense of moral superiority than actually helping people and it always ends with them becoming hipocrites.

*- Granted, Cammi is as much of wraped in her head hipocrite as Ned, but her the story potrays as being always in right and always pure and heroic.

[Ceebiro]

1) Where do you get the idea that Runaways don't want to be heroes? Entire vol.2 is about how they not only want but feel they need to be heroes to undo evil caused by their parents. They go and pick fights with villains on their own in vol.2 AND vol.3 all the time. Where is that idea coming from?
2) Dormant property is one good story from being golden again. And Runaways are kind of property where fandom could be satisfied with getting them rarerly, but in good stuff. Quality over quantity - if we wanted to follow characters who are in a book every month, even is faid book isn't worth anything, we would follow Wolverine.
And Arena/Undercover dragged down Runaways in other way that you think. Many fans are geniuquely afraid that after that Nico and Chase are beyong salvaging or repair. Too many elements of their characters have been removed and replaced, be it their character traits (Nico's compassion) or abilities (Chase's bound with Old Lace) or limitations (Nico's magic), even Nico's motherly relationship with Molly was destroyed. Most of the appeal these characters had to the fans AND the writers have been eradicated and replaced with boring and generic. Especially Nico, who right now became just a thousanth shitty Raven clone with lame 90s hand when before she was distinctive character on her own. We fear that once Hopeless is done, the characters we love might nto just be dead, they might be changed to the point that what we loved no longer exists and it's just two other, much less interesting people, wearing their faces and names. And while yes, a good writer might fix this and quite easily (personally I'm all for Tempus Fugit 2 solution someone proposed here) but first a writer willing to do it needs to show up. And with the state these characters are right now said writer might never do so, because whatever story potential they once had is now gone and nobody is going to waste their time fixing Dennis' Hopeless mess.

What you're really complaining about is that the character's changed in a bad situation. Nico was still friendly throughout to the Academy group in Arena, and things didn't go south until Hazmat thought Chase had attacked Reptil and lashed out at Nico. After that she was "betrayed", kicked off a cliff, left for dead and fell under the influence of the dark magic that is her birth right. She didn't just have a 180 in characterization out of the blue. While you are free to disagree, there's nothing particularly generic about Nico even under Hopeless.

And if you really believe that the story potential is now gone because of Arena/Undercover then you never really had much faith in the characters. Every character is one good story away from being a success right?

EDIT: I'm not going to bother quoting your last post, but you're making a lot of assumptions about where the story is headed to try to argue a lack of optimism in the story. There has been no indication that the kids will really succumb to the temptations around them, considering three of them just came up with a plan to undermine and take down the Masters from the inside. Now I trust one of them will go all the way, but if the others don't and manage to succeed in their goals, that is reason enough to be optimistic.

[Nelson]

What you're really complaining about is that the character's changed in a bad situation. Nico was still friendly throughout to the Academy group in Arena, and things didn't go south until Hazmat thought Chase had attacked Reptil and lashed out at Nico. After that she was "betrayed", kicked off a cliff, left for dead and fell under the influence of the dark magic that is her birth right. She didn't just have a 180 in characterization out of the blue. While you are free to disagree, there's nothing particularly generic about Nico even under Hopeless.

I'm complaining not that she changed. I'm complaining about the fact said change is forced, offensive to people with PTSD, and the result is a lot worse than what she was beore. Right now she hits all the elements that are common for every magic goth girl, especially whole "dark magic in her blood tempting her to evil and alerting her behavior". The things that made her distinctive and interesting are gone and things that made jsut the same as legion of Raven clones are in. Her compassion, her intelligence, her creativity, her motherly behavior, her interesting limits on magic - all gone. Anger, angst, boring purle lasers and generic DARKNESS replaced them. I have no problem with character changing. I have the problem with change being badly done and the result being less interesting and having much less story potential than starting point.
And your argument is horribly constructed. The fact that the circumstances which lead to her changing are not generic* doesn't mean the final outcome isn't generic, one does not depends on another.

And if you really believe that the story potential is now gone because of Arena/Undercover then you never really had much faith in the characters. Every character is one good story away from being a success right?

Every character is also one bad story away from being ruined beyond salvaging.
Character traits that were giving them the most potential and made them ost interesting are gone, therefore their story potential is gone or limited. I don't think any character in entire Marvel is strong enough to retain it's potential after that level of bad writing for so long. Not without things like Peter David saving Hulk. And it doesn't seem there is a writer willing to do it for Nico and Chase so until somebody shows up and will do it then no, I don't have faith in them surviving as characters, no matter the outcome of the series.
And again, fans, me included, fear not there will be no more stories with them but they will no longer be characters we WANT to follow. How hard is to understand that? Nico in Hopeless version is not the Nico I want to read about and if her personality stays that way I'll simply stop following her. Because her personality right now is not interesting. It's something I've seen million times and if I want to see again, I read comics with Raven. It's boring.

EDIT: I'm not going to bother quoting your last post, but you're making a lot of assumptions about where the story is headed to try to argue a lack of optimism in the story. There has been no indication that the kids will really succumb to the temptations around them, considering three of them just came up with a plan to undermine and take down the Masters from the inside. Now I trust one of them will go all the way, but if the others don't and manage to succeed in their goals, that is reason enough to be optimistic.

I'm making the assumptions based on the fact that so far villains are AGAIN potrayed as three steps ahead, predicting their every move, knowing exactly what they need to do to push them to the breaking point..just like Arcade in Arena and he won. So based on author's current body of work no, I don't see heroes winning, even if they won't go all the way Hopeless probably will give Zemo some sort of victory that will undermine all their efforts. And again, read rest of my post - even if they won't give in, the only alternatives are dying as heroes, so again, getting murdered for cheap drama like everyone in Arena, or will become the same hipocritical, holier-than-thou bastards that let innocents die to keep moral high ground, that Spider-Man and Captain America are**. If that's an optimistic outcome for you then thanks but no thanks, for me this is disgusting display of cynical, juveline understanding of morality where all that matters is somebody's ego and sense of superiority.

Oh, and Hopeless said he's trying to create Marvel's answer to Ed Brubaker's the Sleeper from Wildstorm. A comic book about agent who infiltrated supervillain organization and SPOILER: tries to keep his morality untainted and, at the end of first season, FAILS, ends up going native. In second season he has change of heart and trie to play both sides and ends up forever in coma, after getting two people he loved killed. So no, I have no hope for this book ending in any different way that another showcase of juvenile cynicis in attempt to replicate that story's ending.

* Through I would say they are, it's typical forced drama where crap rains on the character to the point of ridiculousness, for no other reason than to push them into darker direction. Sure, it can be done right, Frank Miller did with Daredevil. But a) Miller let Matt remain the same, fall to darkness beuing only short episode and b)Hopeless is not Frank Miller.
**-Granted, Cammi already is one, but she is worst character in entire series so I don't care about her.

[javi150190]

[QUOTE=Nelson;228845]I'm complaining not that she changed. I'm complaining about the fact said change is forced, offensive to people with PTSD, and the result is a lot worse than what she was beore. ]

OFFENSIVE to PEOPLE WITH PtSD, my phycologist says hello. This is far more honest regarding post trauma than any comic surrounding the topic.

[Nelson]

I'm complaining not that she changed. I'm complaining about the fact said change is forced, offensive to people with PTSD, and the result is a lot worse than what she was beore.

OFFENSIVE to PEOPLE WITH PtSD, my phycologist says hello. This is far more honest regarding post trauma than any comic surrounding the topic.

Yes, sure. Her SHOWING no symphtoms but sometimes TALKING about them and it being used as an excuse to explain her sudden murderous urges and temptation towards crime is honest. The whole idea is disgusting and offensive. Yes, PTSD might make you angried, it might make you antisocial, it might make you cut off your friends and family. It won't make you more likely to become a criminal. It won't make you trigger happy murderer. It won't make you want to watch the world burn. I actually read about it AND I have some opinions from people who actually suffer from PTSD. And until even one person with PTSD is offended by it, it's offensive, no matter what your psychologist, sitting in their chair with all privilege of not having PTSD apparently giving them right to judge, is going to say.
And you cannot claim character shows realistic or honest potrayal of somebody being affected by past trauma or suffering from PTSD when at the same time it's implied and you people feel to belive, that said character "fell under the influence of the dark magic" so we don't know how much of her behavior actually is geniuque and how much is caused by said magic.