ULTIMATE TRUTH! How do CBR posters feel about Iceman being gay?

[RandyMcDonald]

How you choose to identify is your choice and your business unless it is detrimental to someone else.

Hmm. If the claimed identity is clearly contradicted by my behaviour, though, isn't it at least worthy of mention? If I call myself "straight" despite having no experience at all with women and plenty of experience with men, that's me laying claim to a label that would seem to apply not at all to my behaviour.

Either way, still say they should have just made him bi. Not like there are a lot of bi male characters out there anyway and that way it actually would not have brought any of his relationships with women into question, because right now it makes him look like a beard seeking prick.

I didn't read that at all in what Bobby said. From his language, it seems as if he tried things with women when he thought things might work, that he was not engaging in coverups but rather actively trying to be heterosexual.

Or else they all knew and ALL kept silent? Preposterous. Does anyone actually think Emma, after sharing Iceman's mind, as she put it, "being as intimate as two people could be", would have spent her time berating him on not pushing himself hard enough with his powers, and telling him that was what he had been hiding and not dealing with rather than helping him come to terms with being secretly gay if he actually was? Or continued flirting with him and even going on a date with him?

If he didn't want to deal with his issues, sure. Emma Frost has sympathies, but Emma Frost can also cut her losses.

Outing a character should feel like someone who was already gay has just had that revealed, not that a straight character has just been wrapped in a lie to fit a fringe theory/fantasy of a small segment of fans/and play a part in Marvel' s current diversity ad campaign. All rammed through by one writer and a willing editor, and forced down the throat of general fandom while retroactively changing decades of stories.

That's definitely a problem. I first heard of this fan theory in 2004, long before I became seriously interested At lein the comics. The theory made sense to me at the time, not to the extent that it made the idea of a straight Iceman impossible, but enough that it struck me as one believable alternative. When the news of the coming out came out in April, I was not surprised.

I can easily imagine that some fans never heard of this theory, or that some fans never took it seriously. I would suggest that Bobby's behaviour is not inconsistent with someone deeply closeted. If Bobby had the stable romantic history of the other O5, showing an inclination towards long-running and reasonably successful relationships interrupted only by external catastrophe, I would have problems with characterizing him as gay. He hasn't, though.

Bendis did nothing with young Iceman in All-New for over forty issues except have him cracking jokes in the background, then became a supporting character in his own coming out story as Jean told him he was gay, then pushed him to confront his older-self, which results, after just a couple of sentence, in him admitting he's gay and has been living in shame and denial for over fifty years of stories without fans seeing ANY of it.

At least some fans have seen that, and Liu's Astonishing X-Men arc did suggest that Bobby has been living in shame and denial for some time. Why this is the case, we learned only now.

[Tazpocalapse]

What did he have with Warbird? From my memory, anything between them was entirely at her end, with Bobby being put off by her stalkerish behaviour.

In Astonishing X-men when they were teammates they developed a friendship that he was comfortably around her. The early depictions seemed more like a warrior that was searching for a mate that she deemed suitable, and possibly may have had more to do with Shiar culture.

[Timbales]

Hmm. If the claimed identity is clearly contradicted by my behaviour, though, isn't it at least worthy of mention?

To what end? What would you hope to achieve by mentioning it?

Let's say you see someone eat a piece of bacon who says they are vegetarian. You feel the overwhelming need to point out the contradictory behavior. They say "Yeah, I slipped. I wouldn't normally do that. I haven't had bacon in years and it just smelled so good. But I'm a vegetarian." Is that going to be good enough for you? For some it may be. For others, it may not be.

Does it matter? Because in the end it's you forcing your label and perspective onto someone who isn't doing anything to harm you.

[Viteh]

I really like Bobby being gay. But I thought his outing scene was pretty bad. I also think Bendis handled legit criticism (as in, not about Iceman being gay but how the story was written) terribly, by beign quite dismissive.

The Adult Bobby scene was done better though.

[vitruvian]

and the fact you want to mock someone who is doing nothing of an impact to you is really sad

If I notice that somebody is claiming to be a vegetarian that actually eats meat (and I mean on a regular basis, not an occasional lapse, btw), then the way they are abusing the English language may not be physically painful to me, but it does detract from the function of language, which is clarity in conveying meaning. Agreed upon definitions of terms are actually important, since without them you can never be sure if you understand what anybody is trying to say.

In this instance, a vegetarian is somebody who does not eat meat, so if you do eat meat (again, regularly), you are not one, and if you say you are I will point out that you are misusing the term. Depending on whether you seem to be deliberately lying or merely clueless or ignorant, my tone in doing so may vary.

[Anduinel]

In Astonishing X-men when they were teammates they developed a friendship that he was comfortably around her. The early depictions seemed more like a warrior that was searching for a mate that she deemed suitable, and possibly may have had more to do with Shiar culture.

Earlier depictions? This was their interaction in Amazing X-Men #1, one of Aaron's last stabs at writing for the X-Books.



Bobby was seriously not interested. Not that it necessarily has much to do with his sexuality; being stalked isn't a turn on for most folks.

[Timbales]

If I notice that somebody is claiming to be a vegetarian that actually eats meat (and I mean on a regular basis, not an occasional lapse, btw), then the way they are abusing the English language may not be physically painful to me, but it does detract from the function of language, which is clarity in conveying meaning. Agreed upon definitions of terms are actually important, since without them you can never be sure if you understand what anybody is trying to say.

In this instance, a vegetarian is somebody who does not eat meat, so if you do eat meat (again, regularly), you are not one, and if you say you are I will point out that you are misusing the term. Depending on whether you seem to be deliberately lying or merely clueless or ignorant, my tone in doing so may vary.

Where I disagree with you is your attitude that someone else is required to justify themselves to you in order to avoid your judgement.

[RandyMcDonald]

Where I disagree with you is your attitude that someone else is required to justify themselves to you in order to avoid your judgement.

I prefer it if words have clear meanings. If, for some reason, someone is behaving publically in a way that contradicts what they say they do, or should do, I think most people would acknowledge a certain curiosity. People would be entitled to wonder why I might call myself straight if I only have romantic and sexual relationships with men, for instance.

[Icefanatic]

That's definitely a problem. I first heard of this fan theory in 2004, long before I became seriously interested At lein the comics. The theory made sense to me at the time, not to the extent that it made the idea of a straight Iceman impossible, but enough that it struck me as one believable alternative. When the news of the coming out came out in April, I was not surprised.

I can easily imagine that some fans never heard of this theory, or that some fans never took it seriously. I would suggest that Bobby's behaviour is not inconsistent with someone deeply closeted. If Bobby had the stable romantic history of the other O5, showing an inclination towards long-running and reasonably successful relationships interrupted only by external catastrophe, I would have problems with characterizing him as gay. He hasn't, though.

I never even heard of the theory until I came to CBR in my twenties, and I had been an Iceman/X-Men fan for many years and known many other fans. It was so largely specific to this place, WB had to have it listed in a thread for new members "What's all this I hear about Iceman being gay" with the explanation being it was a joke meant to enjoy the sometimes homophobic reaction of Iceman fans. You' d go to other forums like the old Marvel one or Comicvine and sometimes someone would ask "Is Iceman gay". The response was ALWAYS "no, why do you ask?" and the answer: 'Just something I heard on CBR"(Even people who HAD heard of it mostly gave it no credence. Like G. W. Bush masterminding the 911 attacks, or bigfoot, and treated it as a joke).

Even the posters on Bendis's Tumblr who convinced him to do this were mostly posters from here, many of them now banned for trolling. They would come to the Iceman Appreciation thread here on the old forum and brag about the things they were getting him to do with young Iceman in the comic. They told Bendis Iceman fans hated him in the appreciation thread, which wasn't true, and said they were going to get Bendis to out young Iceman.

I contacted Bendis ONE time through social media and explained we did not hate him in the thread(even linked him to it so he could see for himself), that we were just concerned with what the posters trolling us were telling us about the things they claimed to be getting him to do, and concerned he would change the character or how he wrote him. Bendis assured me he wouldn't let anything they said affect how he handled the character.

Fast forward about a year and

Bendis: The people on my Tumblr convinced me Iceman is gay.

Uggh! Knowing the real-world stuff involved here, there is no way I can ever willingly accept this, and I think if more fans knew, they wouldn't either.

The other part of the problem(as if that isn't enough of one) is you have two competing narratives for Bobby Drake.

One: He is exactly as what he has seemed to most people for fifty years of stories: a straight guy with relationship issues, with loves and losses, happy in his life, largely accepting of himself although never quite able to rise above being the slacker/manchild/underachiever, and always somewhat frustrated by that.

Two: He is a gay man who has spent the entire fifty years period of his fictional life living in shame and denial.

As a fan who has followed his fictional life for about three decades(since I was a child), it's an easy choice to make for which one of those narrative I chose to believe. One narrative lets me reread fifty years of back-issues and feel EXACTLY as I did every other time I read them. The other changes a lot of things into something less pleasant.

Fifty years of happiness, or fifty years of "shame and denial"?

For me, that's an easy choice to make, and it will be for a lot of other people, too.

[Nyadnar17]

...

Fifty years of happiness, or fifty years of "shame and denial"?

For me, that's an easy choice to make, and it will be for a lot of other people, too.

Pretty much. Its cast a shadow not just on him, his relationships, but also all his PSYCHIC "friends" including Charles Xavier, than man who whole mission in life was supposedly getting people to expect who they are and each other despite their differences.

EDIT: Being called a homophobe for having said opinion-despite entire gay forums having the same consensus- is just icing on the cake.

[bloodofthegods]

How insulting would it be for a heterosexual man or woman to "identify" as a homosexual, without the associated behavior of a homosexual, i.e., continued sex with the opposite gender?

[Timbales]

How insulting would it be for a heterosexual man or woman to "identify" as a homosexual, without the associated behavior of a homosexual, i.e., continued sex with the opposite gender?

are you watching that new show on ABC, "Quantico"?

[Tazpocalapse]

Earlier depictions? This was their interaction in Amazing X-Men #1, one of Aaron's last stabs at writing for the X-Books.



Bobby was seriously not interested. Not that it necessarily has much to do with his sexuality; being stalked isn't a turn on for most folks.

As i stated earlier depictions of her character were portrayed that way. Jason Aaron was not the only person that wrote the character. Their interactions were different in Astonishing X-men.He was secure enough to be around her without feeling like he was being stalked by her in that book.It is clear that Marjorie Lui wrote the character differently.

I did not say he was interested in her i pointed out another example of female interactions that Iceman has had prior to this revelation.
Since that panel is up Iceman clearly states that he has a GIRLFRIEND that has a lot to do with his sexuality.

[Complexed]

Yes, you would continually shout about having GIRLFRIEND if you didn't want people to suspect she was nothing more than a beard. and he may not have realized he was using her that way. He's a deeply stunted individual. He always has been.

[Tazpocalapse]

So him having a girlfriend, several thru is history makes him a closeted homosexual? Even though it conflicts with how he has been portrayed as a hetero male since the 60s?