ULTIMATE TRUTH! How do CBR posters feel about Iceman being gay?

[Confuzzled]

Um, Bobby and Lorna? How old are you guys? They broke up in what, the late 60's? And she definitely left him for Havok. How is that some cherished relationship?

Unless they are talking about the Austen disaster. The one of many Austen disasters.

[Kieran_Frost]

Ultimate truth, Iceman is gay.

Personally, I don't think it was a very surprising revelation. Especially if you have been a member of these forums, because since I can recall, we have seen many threads over the years, disputing Bobby's sexuality. Some of which were very indepth in analyzing character/personality traits and many moments through the years that could mean something in regards to the issue at hand. What was surprising, is maybe how rushed it was all handled (then again, many storylines that were featured in Uncanny X-men #600 felt rushed).

There were still a couple of panels and dialogue however, that I thought were well done, like when Bobby says "Just today...and maybe tomorrow...and then so much time goes by that...you say to yourself, late at night, one day...maybe". That whole segment felt very spot on to me and made perfect sense. I also liked the artwork done by Mahmud Asrar. Sure it was followed by that silly hug moment, but I'll just ignore that part. What I also find interesting is that now we finally have confirmation of what many always speculated: that Iceman is/was always an emotionally/sexually repressed character, and underneath his apparently happy and humorous facade was an underlying sadness. What is also interesting and sad as well, is that even his moment of affirmation was not very glorious for him. It was not as if he had finally come to terms with himself and his issues...he was faced with his younger self who is less f***ed up than he is and kind of pushed out of the closet by young Bobby and Jean, and forced to confront himself (physically - his young self and emotionally - his inner self) and how messed up he is. Tragic...but something I look forward to see how it progresses.

All in all, I loved it but would have loved it more if it had been less rushed and done with a bit more tact and emotional depth, although some parts were well done. There are so many character interactions with Bobby I would love to see on panel, regarding this...but most will probably not happen, especially with the whole time jump thing.

Your post is just beautiful; and pretty much mirrors exactly how I feel, kudos.

[bloodofthegods]

It's fairly simple. Shooter, by multiple accounts, specifically disallowed the representation of any characters as gay, even if--as with Northstar--they were intended to be so from their conception. Some authors managed to get things past by being quiet, Claremont for instance with Mystique and Destiny, but they did so by not highlighting subtext.

The only representation he allowed was negative. He personally depicted Bruce Banner, vulnerable in the showers at the YMCA, nearly getting raped by two other men, going into some significant detail.

http://jeangreyphoenixfans.yuku.com/...A-Hulk-23-1980

If the only representation of a community allowed is negative, I would suggest it takes specific choices to opt for this negative representation as opposed to simply saying nothing. This does not mean that Shooter is irredeemably homophobic, or that this was personal for him, or that he is a talentless writer and editor, or anything like that. It just means that, in the 1980s, he made choices that reflected societal homophobia.

This seems to have been pretty talked about in my absence, so I don't want to rehash too much, and let the thread go in the direction it is in now. But I wanted to thank you for providing me with the scans and a great discussion Randy.

As far as that particular section of the whole story goes, without anything else for context, I guess it could be taken either way whether the perpetrators were homosexual or heterosexual. Maybe with the whole story, if there is any more context, I might see it differently. But as it is I think it can go either way, but perhaps not the point of the story. I see the attempted (and least that's how I read it) rape as more a vehicle for how that act can affect a person, and how in this instance, someone with two literally different people inside them reacts. I don't particularly find it offensive. (I have a bit more than a layman's insight on rape. It being used to drive a story can be done without in being distasteful. I didn't get offended by this particular scene as I would say Seth McFarlane's constant rape jokes in American Dad or Family Guy. The constant running joke of Damon (Terry Crews) in Friday After Next being homosexual after being in prison for 12 years ... that's made for the reason to perpetuate that joke with nothing more to it.)

It's also all fiction to me, and I take nothing more from fiction than escapism. I don't mind, and sometimes enjoy discussion fiction, as we are now. But in the end, reading that or watching American Dad, etc ... doesn't change my world view. For that I look to the world to see how things are happening. Things may be offensive, and so I don't watch/read them, because it ruins my escapism. But I don't usually give them a second thought. Or think that somehow something from fiction could possibly be true in life. Fiction can unfortunately be the carrier of stereotypes and prejudice, being all the more reason for me, to not take it as more than entertainment.

[sureshot]

The character is gay now. I never saw too many hints or clues. Simply being bad at relationships with women does not a gay person make. If that was true then their would be more gay men out there. By virtue of being bad at relationships. More buildup and less rushing it would have been better. Make him bi-sexual with a preference for men.

[Darkgreed]

it would be great if Human Torch was gay too, they would be the power couple of Marvel

[Kieran_Frost]

it would be great if Human Torch was gay too, they would be the power couple of Marvel

[ZNOP]

it would be great if Human Torch was gay too, they would be the power couple of Marvel

Wouldn't such a relationship be deemed taboo considering that popular consensus consider mutants to be non-human -- much like how baseline humans view farm animals?

[numberthirty]

Wouldn't such a relationship be deemed taboo considering that popular consensus consider mutants to be non-human -- much like how baseline humans view farm animals?

Since I believe you might make up a "consensus" of one, I don't see it being a taboo.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

[QUOTE=sureshot;1607959]The character is gay now. I never saw too many hints or clues. Simply being bad at relationships with women does not a gay person make. If that was true then their would be more gay men out there. By virtue of being bad at relationships. More buildup and less rushing it would have been better. Make him bi

It's because there wasn't that many hints or clues if any really at all, mostly people misunderstanding what the writers were writing, then since it's popular to have a gay character now he's gay.

[Juggs]

[QUOTE=LoganAlpha30X33;1609655]

The character is gay now. I never saw too many hints or clues. Simply being bad at relationships with women does not a gay person make. If that was true then their would be more gay men out there. By virtue of being bad at relationships. More buildup and less rushing it would have been better. Make him bi

It's because there wasn't that many hints or clues if any really at all, mostly people misunderstanding what the writers were writing, then since it's popular to have a gay character now he's gay.

Agreed. Yep there wasn't any hints or clues at all and yeah mostly it was people misunderstanding the writing. And yeah it is popular to have a gay character now's he's gay. Pretty much.

[Chromatic]

Agreed. Yep there wasn't any hints or clues at all and yeah mostly it was people misunderstanding the writing. And yeah it is popular to have a gay character now's he's gay. Pretty much.

I disagree with both of these points.

Firstly, there may have been different interpretations of what was shown to us in the comics and that is perfectly normal. One can argue that all forms of interpretations are valid although there can also be made a case for only one being valid, when taking in account the intention of the artist/writer/creator.

With this being said, and taking in regard these intentions and what was being represented, I'm pretty sure that Scott Lodbell had every intent of bringing Bobby out of the closet in the 90's and even recently, Marjorie Liu confirmed that she wrote Iceman as a closeted character. So which is the misunderstanding? Which is the valid interpretation and which is false? I think despite whatever intent, it still leaves room for various valid interpretations. However, now we have confirmation that he is and always was gay (contrary to those saying that he is "now" gay).

So, in my opinion, this is not something that just came out of left field, nor was it something that arrised from misunderstandings. Let's also not forget that ever since the beginning, the X-men were created as an allegory of civil rights movement, female rights movement and LGBTQ rights movement, and if not for the existance of the comics code authority of back then, maybe Older Bobby would have been less repressed as his younger counterpart seems to be, in this era. Yes, this sounds a bit metafictional...but it makes sense to me, especially taking in account that X-men comics have always been a sort of reflection of the times we live in.

Secondly, I have been seeing this argument a lot and can't understand it: "...It is popular to have a gay character so now he's gay...", "...it is just a gimmick..." or "...something to add shock value...".

I have a hard time understanding these points, because honestly, to me, this has been something that has been slow burning for at least a couple decades now, and just seems like it makes perfect sense for the character and his story progression, and not just a cheap contraversial publicity stunt.

[cranger]

I have a hard time understanding these points, because honestly, to me, this has been something that has been slow burning for at least a couple decades now, and just seems like it makes perfect sense for the character and his story progression, and not just a cheap contraversial publicity stunt.

Remember when Xorn turned out to be Magneto and then it turned out it wasn't Magneto... or something like that. Well that made more sense than a character who had been written straight for over 50 years all of a sudden saying he has been hiding his sexuality from everyone the whole time, and by everyone I mean the writers, editors and readers.

An after thought, it is almost like if they just came out and revealed Beast is actually a Skrull. While you might say "oh, that explains things..." the fact is that Beast has never been written as a Skrull, even if some writer gets (mis)quoted as saying they always thought it would be an interesting idea to make him a Skrull.

[ZNOP]

Since I believe you might make up a "consensus" of one, I don't see it being a taboo.

Who was it that said (in so many words) that having sex with Rahne Sinclair while she's in her full wolf state was gross (I.e., bestiality being one of those taboos), again?

[RandyMcDonald]

The character is gay now. I never saw too many hints or clues. Simply being bad at relationships with women does not a gay person make.

I won't repeat the many, many times people of good faith have seen hints and clues. Suffice it to say that simply being bad with relationships was not enough. How he was bad at relationships mattered.

it would be great if Human Torch was gay too, they would be the power couple of Marvel

It may be worth noting that, on Archive of Our Own, one of the most popular pairings of Bobby Drake seems to be with movieverse Pyro.

I disagree with both of these points.

Firstly, there may have been different interpretations of what was shown to us in the comics and that is perfectly normal. One can argue that all forms of interpretations are valid although there can also be made a case for only one being valid, when taking in account the intention of the artist/writer/creator.

With this being said, and taking in regard these intentions and what was being represented, I'm pretty sure that Scott Lodbell had every intent of bringing Bobby out of the closet in the 90's and even recently, Marjorie Liu confirmed that she wrote Iceman as a closeted character. So which is the misunderstanding? Which is the valid interpretation and which is false? I think despite whatever intent, it still leaves room for various valid interpretations. However, now we have confirmation that he is and always was gay (contrary to those saying that he is "now" gay).

So, in my opinion, this is not something that just came out of left field, nor was it something that arrised from misunderstandings. Let's also not forget that ever since the beginning, the X-men were created as an allegory of civil rights movement, female rights movement and LGBTQ rights movement, and if not for the existance of the comics code authority of back then, maybe Older Bobby would have been less repressed as his younger counterpart seems to be, in this era. Yes, this sounds a bit metafictional...but it makes sense to me, especially taking in account that X-men comics have always been a sort of reflection of the times we live in.

Secondly, I have been seeing this argument a lot and can't understand it: "...It is popular to have a gay character so now he's gay...", "...it is just a gimmick..." or "...something to add shock value...".

I have a hard time understanding these points, because honestly, to me, this has been something that has been slow burning for at least a couple decades now, and just seems like it makes perfect sense for the character and his story progression, and not just a cheap contraversial publicity stunt.

^ This. Again, I first heard of this possibility in 2004.

Remember when Xorn turned out to be Magneto and then it turned out it wasn't Magneto... or something like that. Well that made more sense than a character who had been written straight for over 50 years all of a sudden saying he has been hiding his sexuality from everyone the whole time, and by everyone I mean the writers, editors and readers.

Marjorie Liu, for one, did not write him as straight. Other writers might have been of like opinions, even actions. Meanwhile, many readers thought that he might be gay.

I can understand how someone not attuned to the discussions in one portion of fandom might be surprised that these discussions occurred, perhaps because their content was so novel. They did occur, though, and were apparently sufficiently believable to convince not just Bendis, but Marvel's brass, to run with it.

[cranger]

Marjorie Liu, for one, did not write him as straight. Other writers might have been of like opinions, even actions. Meanwhile, many readers thought that he might be gay.

I can understand how someone not attuned to the discussions in one portion of fandom might be surprised that these discussions occurred, perhaps because their content was so novel. They did occur, though, and were apparently sufficiently believable to convince not just Bendis, but Marvel's brass, to run with it.

Of course she wrote him as straight. Show any proof in the comic that shows otherwise. And still, picking one writer who was co-writing Iceman almost 50 years after his debut is kind of missing the point. Even if she outed him, it would be the same as Bendis doing it.

As for the Iceman is gay jokes, yeah I saw them. Fan theories like that mean nothing other than people have too much time on their hand or cannot understand how fiction works.