ULTIMATE TRUTH! How do CBR posters feel about Iceman being gay?

[yogaflame]

it would be great if Human Torch was gay too, they would be the power couple of Marvel

I did a alternate universe story with gay Bobby and Shiro. Basically that same idea.

[BroHomo]

I did a alternate universe story with gay Bobby and Shiro. Basically that same idea.

I doubt Shiro would be into some "wide eyed" accountant.

[RandyMcDonald]

Of course she wrote him as straight. Show any proof

She said that's how she wrote him? And that's what readers at the time thought she might be working up to?

picking one writer who was co-writing Iceman almost 50 years after his debut

I've noted before that, as originally conceived, none of the original 5 X-Men were imagined as having the complicated backstories that they eventually had. Scott, for instance, did not have a brother and was not separated from his parents by an alien abduction, while Jean did not meet Xavier as a catatonic 11-year-old traumatized by feeling her best friend die in her mind and certainly had no links to cosmic forces of creation and destruction. Et cetera.

If we're to insist that the O5 X-Men remain true to their appearances in UXM #1, we're going to remove lots of growth.

As for the Iceman is gay jokes, yeah I saw them

I think you misread them, at least some of them. The people I knew who were talking of Iceman as being gay were actually being serious.

[cranger]

She said that's how she wrote him? And that's what readers at the time thought she might be working up to?

Considering you cut off everything I said to give answers that were pretty much already addressed in what you cut off, I think it explains why also selectively ignore so much written work and just about every writer who is not Liu (who, by the way, told fans he was straight).

[RandyMcDonald]

Considering you cut off everything I said to give answers that were pretty much already addressed in what you cut off

Because you were setting forth wholly arbitrary stipulations which, incidentally, ignored Liu's most recent statements on the subject and ignored the possibility that sincere readers actually did read a lot of queer subtext. I didn't see a convincing argument that the Astonishing X-Men arc had to be read that way, and I'd have been perfectly fine if Bobby and Kitty's relationship had succeeded, but the subtext was there, without any need to squint.

[J]ust about every writer who is not Liu (who, by the way, told fans he was straight).

... two years ago, when she was still working for Marvel, at a time when Liu certainly could not unilaterally out a major mutant character. After leaving Marvel to work elsewhere, she immediately responded on Twitter to say that she wrote Bobby as deeply closeted and that this made a lot of sense of the character and his relationships.

[cranger]

Because you were setting forth wholly arbitrary stipulations which, incidentally, ignored Liu's most recent statements on the subject and ignored the possibility that sincere readers actually did read a lot of queer subtext. I didn't see a convincing argument that the Astonishing X-Men arc had to be read that way, and I'd have been perfectly fine if Bobby and Kitty's relationship had succeeded, but the subtext was there, without any need to squint.



... two years ago, when she was still working for Marvel, at a time when Liu certainly could not unilaterally out a major mutant character. After leaving Marvel to work elsewhere, she immediately responded on Twitter to say that she wrote Bobby as deeply closeted and that this made a lot of sense of the character and his relationships.

My only stipulations are that things be looked at as a whole and not just what one writer says after that fact... and again, the point there is that she is just one writer who even if she wrote him as closeted has nothing to do with any theory anyone came up with and itself would simply be going against 50 years of stories. Not a 50 year old story, but 50 years of many, many stories.

Any 'revelation' that Iceman is gay is simply an invention at this point, any argument otherwise is simply ignoring over 99.999999999% of source material.

[Chromatic]

Marjorie Liu is only one of many though, this being in 2013 if I am not in error. As I mentioned before, all through Scot Lodbells Uncanny X-men run, Bobby was a main focus (starting at around 1993 I think?) and it seemed like he was going to come out of the closet in every other issue for awhile. I understand that many others may not have perceived those moments in this light, but many did, myself included. Was I projecting? Maybe! Was I grasping at something that felt somewhat relatable in this character? Also a possibility, but I was also not alone in this interpretation, and I do believe it was the writers intent. Context is also very important! Scott lodbell was who had Northstar come out as gay in 1992. So this was twenty some years ago...

I read somewhere that it was in the early 80's that many readers started to question Bobby's sexuality. This was around the time of the cartoon "Spiderman and his amazing friends" and also of "The New defenders" run , I am not sure why exactly, or if that was when this theory started or not, although it would be interesting to find out (I think not, given some things I have read before this date, but am not sure...does anyone know when the story that came with issue #600 was first published?). I understand it may have had something to do with his relationship with cloud at the time. So this was thirty some years ago...

What I am trying to get to here is that him being written as straight for 50 years and all of a sudden retconned into something he is not, is very far from the truth. It is no retcon, much less invention and for many, it was no surprise or revelation either, since it has been a long time coming, and makes perfect sense. It's just another stop on his story, given the roadmap which is the source material.

Make no mistake, it's not a happy story for Bobby (yet at least), but it is in my opinion a very interesting and real one, that many can unfortunately relate to. Repression, denial, overcompensation, deflection through humour, fear of being alone, insecurity, trying to live up to his dads expectation, shame...it's not pretty nor perfect but these are all bits of Bobby's story and past, him being gay is just another piece. I sometimes feel that this is what some people most dislike, that he is not just the apparently happy go lucky guy that cracks jokes, and actually has other stuff going on beneath the surface.

[RandyMcDonald]

My only stipulations are that things be looked at as a whole and not just what one writer says after that fact...

Even at a time when she can talk freely about her intentions?

Again: You keep ignoring, as Chromatic points out below, the many decades of speculation based on material in the text that Iceman might be deeply in the closet. I heard of it in 2004, Scott Lobdell was playing with some of the themes a decade earlier, and apparently some people thought this as early as the 1980s. These have been pointed out before. Choosing to ignore them does not make it go away.

[Arya]

Even at a time when she can talk freely about her intentions?

Again: You keep ignoring, as Chromatic points out below, the many decades of speculation based on material in the text that Iceman might be deeply in the closet. I heard of it in 2004, Scott Lobdell was playing with some of the themes a decade earlier, and apparently some people thought this as early as the 1980s. These have been pointed out before. Choosing to ignore them does not make it go away.

Or not exist. This has been a theme for a minute.

[RandyMcDonald]

Or not exist. This has been a theme for a minute.

? I do not follow.

[cranger]

Marjorie Liu is only one of many though, this being in 2013 if I am not in error. As I mentioned before, all through Scot Lodbells Uncanny X-men run, Bobby was a main focus (starting at around 1993 I think?) and it seemed like he was going to come out of the closet in every other issue for awhile. I understand that many others may not have perceived those moments in this light, but many did, myself included. Was I projecting? Maybe! Was I grasping at something that felt somewhat relatable in this character? Also a possibility, but I was also not alone in this interpretation, and I do believe it was the writers intent. Context is also very important! Scott lodbell was who had Northstar come out as gay in 1992. So this was twenty some years ago...

I read somewhere that it was in the early 80's that many readers started to question Bobby's sexuality. This was around the time of the cartoon "Spiderman and his amazing friends" and also of "The New defenders" run , I am not sure why exactly, or if that was when this theory started or not, although it would be interesting to find out (I think not, given some things I have read before this date, but am not sure...does anyone know when the story that came with issue #600 was first published?). I understand it may have had something to do with his relationship with cloud at the time. So this was thirty some years ago...

What I am trying to get to here is that him being written as straight for 50 years and all of a sudden retconned into something he is not, is very far from the truth. It is no retcon, much less invention and for many, it was no surprise or revelation either, since it has been a long time coming, and makes perfect sense. It's just another stop on his story, given the roadmap which is the source material.

Make no mistake, it's not a happy story for Bobby (yet at least), but it is in my opinion a very interesting and real one, that many can unfortunately relate to. Repression, denial, overcompensation, deflection through humour, fear of being alone, insecurity, trying to live up to his dads expectation, shame...it's not pretty nor perfect but these are all bits of Bobby's story and past, him being gay is just another piece. I sometimes feel that this is what some people most dislike, that he is not just the apparently happy go lucky guy that cracks jokes, and actually has other stuff going on beneath the surface.

Even at a time when she can talk freely about her intentions?

Again: You keep ignoring, as Chromatic points out below, the many decades of speculation based on material in the text that Iceman might be deeply in the closet. I heard of it in 2004, Scott Lobdell was playing with some of the themes a decade earlier, and apparently some people thought this as early as the 1980s. These have been pointed out before. Choosing to ignore them does not make it go away.

Sorry, but these 'sources' are way too vague and without anything to provide from the time other than people saying they remember this being something that might go back that far, it all just sounds too convenient. Unless there has been some secret document handed down from writer to writer saying Iceman is gay but don't spoil it yet, this is all fanfiction.

EDIT: All I am saying is show me the smoking gun or admit it is wishful thinking that was realized by a writer on his way out.

[Arya]

? I do not follow.

It doesn't make the subtext go away or not exist, basically cosigning and agreeing with you.

[RandyMcDonald]

Sorry, but these 'sources' are way too vague

I, unfortunately, was not in the habit of audiotaping my conversations with my friends then, or for that matter now. If I had been, I assure you I could properly present it, in proper MLA format, even.

If you think that the people who are contradicting you with their memories are lying about their experiences, why are you even talking to us?

It doesn't make the subtext go away or not exist, basically cosigning and agreeing with you.

Ah, OK.

[cranger]

I, unfortunately, was not in the habit of audiotaping my conversations with my friends then, or for that matter now. If I had been, I assure you I could properly present it, in proper MLA format, even.

If you think that the people who are contradicting you with their memories are lying about their experiences, why are you even talking to us?

It is what people do here? If you are going to claim 'many decades', give me a date. IF someone 'read somewhere' this started in the 80's, find a source. It helps further the discussion. But just saying "Iceman has always been gay because I heard from someone who heard from someone" is not much, it should not be much to ask for some sort of proof at this point.

Hopefully you find this interesting and relevant:

http://zak-site.com/Great-American-N..._franklin.html

Another longstanding theory and I think there are similar ones out there. Look at how in depth this is. There are a lot of people who buy into this. I think it is an interesting idea and it makes looking at the Marvel Universe make a little more sense. In the end though, it is all just made up. This is not something that is part of the Marvel Universe 'canon' and if some writer all of a sudden decided to use this and actually write it into a story, even if some number of other writers may have 'winked' at the fans who have been into, it does mean it has been the case in the Marvel Universe until the day that writer actually does it.

[RandyMcDonald]

It is what people do here? If you are going to claim 'many decades', give me a date.

I'm going by what other people here have said. I, not having been active in comics until recently, cannot say that. If you think I'm misreporting my conversation of 2004--why? for what end?--then I can say nothing.

saying "Iceman has always been gay because I heard from someone who heard from someone"

That is not what people are saying, not what I've been saying at least. is not much, it should not be much to ask for some sort of proof at this point.

Hopefully you find this interesting and relevant:

http://zak-site.com/Great-American-N..._franklin.html

Another longstanding theory and I think there are similar ones out there. Look at how in depth this is. There are a lot of people who buy into this. I think it is an interesting idea and it makes looking at the Marvel Universe make a little more sense. In the end though, it is all just made up. This is not something that is part of the Marvel Universe 'canon' and if some writer all of a sudden decided to use this and actually write it into a story, even if some number of other writers may have 'winked' at the fans who have been into, it does mean it has been the case in the Marvel Universe until the day that writer actually does it.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure I understand. What would be the problem if this fan speculation became canon?