View Poll Results: How do you feel?

Voters
265. You may not vote on this poll
  • LOVE IT! This reveal makes me so happy.

    36 13.58%
  • Very pleased. Mutant, gay and proud.

    33 12.45%
  • Pleasantly surprised how much I enjoyed this revelation.

    17 6.42%
  • Just relieved Bendis didn’t have 05 Bobby and adult Bobby different sexualities

    11 4.15%
  • Indifferent; I genuinely don’t care if he’s gay or str8

    86 32.45%
  • I don’t know how I feel?

    6 2.26%
  • Disappointed. 05 Bobby as gay fine, but not adult Bobby

    26 9.81%
  • Very annoyed. Neither Bobby should be gay.

    19 7.17%
  • HATE IT! This retcon makes me so upset.

    31 11.70%
Page 5 of 30 FirstFirst 12345678915 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 437
  1. #61
    King Kong Winter_fury's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    552

    Default

    I don't really care for iceman. So it doesn't matter to me.

  2. #62
    All-New Member Shadowice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    21

    Default

    Dissapointed.

  3. #63
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Posts
    4,454

    Default

    Pleasantly surprised how much I enjoyed this revelation.

    Not that bendis did a fantastic job here, but it wasn't awful like i imagined and it did had some nice emotional beats.

  4. #64
    CBR's Good Fairy Kieran_Frost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Bristol, UK
    Posts
    8,499

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalen O. View Post
    And it definitely doesn't change the fact that there should not be a discussion about how people feel about him being gay without acknowledging the fact that there was always a third option, with people being completely justified in wishing and believing he'd have been revealed as bisexual instead.
    My fault, sorry, I didn't even consider that as a poll option (purely because Bendis made a point of saying he is gay, not bisexual).
    "We are Shakespeare. We are Michelangelo. We are Tchaikovsky. We are Turing. We are Mercury. We are Wilde. We are Lincoln, Lorca, Leonardo da Vinci. We are Alexander the Great. We are Fredrick the Great. We are Rustin. We are Addams. We are Marsha! Marsha Marsha Marsha! We so generous, we DeGeneres. We are Ziggy Stardust hooked to the silver screen. Controversially we are Malcolm X. We are Plato. We are Aristotle. We are RuPaul, god dammit! And yes, we are Woolf."

  5. #65
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    24,858

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalen O. View Post
    All I'm saying is that as much as you're pleased to see your specific experiences represented here, there are many of us who were hoping for the exact same thing when viewing this as an opportunity for bisexual representation. So yes, we're disappointed, but acting like our viewpoints aren't even worth representing in a discussion about Bobby's sexuality and the story it played out in goes beyond that.
    Well, it did come up during that klutzy starting discussion between T-Bobby and T-Jean, didn't it? While it is not exactly an "Eisner" caliber bit of writing, it seems like it was momentarily touched on.

  6. #66
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    762

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    My fault, sorry, I didn't even consider that as a poll option (purely because Bendis made a point of saying he is gay, not bisexual).
    Yeah but that's kinda my point? Your topic is pretty broadly about peoples' various reactions to Iceman's sexuality and how well or how poorly Bendis handled it, but doesn't consider that some reactions could be colored by the fact that gay or straight weren't the only options, and Bendis' dismissal of bisexuality as an option WAS the problem people had with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Well, it did come up during that klutzy starting discussion between T-Bobby and T-Jean, didn't it? While it is not exactly an "Eisner" caliber bit of writing, it seems like it was momentarily touched on.
    Yeah, but this is the thing about bi erasure that's so misunderstood, understandably since bisexual issues are so rarely discussed, even in LGBT spaces.

    But bi erasure doesn't just mean pretending that bisexuality doesn't exist.

    It also refers to the erasing or invalidating of it as a sexual identity. So you can absolutely have a discussion that acknowledges the bisexual label, as happened in this story, while still engaging in bisexual erasure because it's never actually shown worthy of any examination.

    Basically, bi erasure is the way characters who have been shown attracted to two genders are re-labeled as gay or straight without any real discussion, or else they 'don't really like labels' or just otherwise avoid being pinned down as actual bisexual representation, under the label bisexual. For instance, when Willow on Buffy the Vampire Slayer comes out is an example of bi erasure, not because it's not totally plausible that she was a lesbian and just never had the awareness or opportunity to explore that before she met Tara. The issue was the fact that there was never any attempt to explain her prior relationships or feelings for Xander or Oz. All her confusion stemmed from the fact that she wasn't sure of her feelings or attraction to Tara initially...but once she accepted that, it was just accepted that meant she was gay, there was no attempt or even acknowledgment of a need to address her previous feelings for men, gay or straight were the only real options and if she were one she couldn't be the other, so nothing more needed to be said.

    Yes, Bendis acknowledged bisexuality exists in his story, but the way it was framed made it clear that it was only mentioned to show it wasn't a possibility. But there was no actual attempt to examine what Bobby's previous relationships meant in light of an attraction to men. Just 'take Jean's word for it', he's full gay. It's the fact that Bobby's previous relationships aren't even WORTH examining for possible attraction to women, because all that's needed to dismiss that is the word of a character who's not even Bobby.

    Bisexual men and women don't just have to reconcile having an attraction to the same sex, they also have to reconcile having an attraction to the opposite sex in the face of a society that still largely (and loudly) insists that you're really just one or the other and anything else is just denial, a phase, experimentation, etc. It's an incredibly insidious thing trying to come to terms with your sexual orientation and not being able to trust if you're actually being honest with yourself about your feelings just because every other voice is telling you your claims of being attracted to both genders are somehow inherently suspect. We feel the same need for representation as any gay man or lesbian.

    So when you have a story that retcons the sexuality of a character who has displayed previous romantic and sexual attractions to women for DECADES (and within his own internal monologues and thoughts just as much as through dialogue)....and we're told through a couple of lines spoken by another character to just go ahead and chalk that up to denial or confusion rather than acknowledge that it COULD be a possibility and it merited actual exploration of Bobby's thoughts and feelings to pin down what was truly going on there, like all of that is something that CAN be dismissed with just a couple of lines....it's problematic. And I fully believe that Bendis didn't intend for it to be, but precisely BECAUSE bisexual issues and awareness is so rarely raised as something for writers to consider, is why it needs to be included in discussions of even just the aftermath of creative decisions like this.
    Last edited by Kalen O.; 11-08-2015 at 05:10 AM.

  7. #67
    Astonishing Member Habis's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,810

    Default

    I would have loved it if had gone like this:

    Jeen: You are gay!
    Old Bobby: Actually, I'm heteroromantic bisexual.
    Jeen: Wha...?
    Young Bobby: What does that even mean?
    Old Bobby: I am sexually attracted to both, but I won't romance men. Most of my male friends are both hetero and assholes, anyways.
    Young Bobby: But why doesn't any of the other X-Men know about that?
    Old Bobby: Because what I do with my dick is none of their business. Also, they are assholes and I don't want to discuss my romantic life with them. By the way, Emma knows, but unlike you, she is respectful enough as to not meddle with my private feelings.
    Jeen: Liking both? Is that even a thing? You are making this up!
    Old Bobby: Go back to the sixties, you nosy bitch.
    Last edited by Habis; 11-08-2015 at 08:40 AM.

  8. #68
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Da Souf
    Posts
    6,740

    Default

    TRUTHFULLY I find the whole thing ultimately annoying almost as annoying as the hoopla its generating.

    The majorty of the X_men still looks homogenized while still managing to bite racial minorities struggle. Bobby saying(and I'm paraphrasing) that being a upper middle class white handsome mutant is hard enough that hewanted to hide another way in which he wasnt normal" almost made me throw up. So now he's a double minority. And im sure we'll get some half-ass writers attempt at poignancy that deals with his persecution. I know using mutants as a minority stand in in the 60s was necessary. But 50 years. Later its still the same crap? lol
    Quote Originally Posted by kevinism View Post
    It would be interesting to see a scene like that actually play out. Opal, Lorna or even Mystique could be like "Hey Bobby, WTF?" and see how he explains himself.
    why wpuld he have to explain amything to them?
    Last edited by BroHomo; 11-08-2015 at 06:01 AM.

  9. #69
    Out Fighting for Peace! AJpyro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    8,701

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Habis View Post
    I would have loved it if had gone like this:

    Jeen: You are gay!
    Old Bobby: Actually, I'm heteroromantic bisexual.
    Jeen: Wha...?
    Young Bobby: What does that even means?
    Old Bobby: I am sexually attracted by both, but I won't romance men. Most of my male friends are both hetero and assholes, anyways.
    Young Bobby: But why doesn't any of the other X-Men know about that?
    Old Bobby: Because what I do with my dick it is none of their business. Also, they are assholes and I don't want to discuss my romantic life with them. By the way, Emma knows, but unlike you, she is respectful enough as to not meddle with my private feelings.
    Jeen: Liking both? Is that even a thing? You are making this up!
    Old Bobby: Go back to the sixties, you nosy bitch.
    Thumbs up here.
    Le Suck it, Dolphin!

    -God I am so tired.

    SCOTT SUMMERS AND EMMA FROST DESERVED BETTER.

  10. #70
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    3,627

    Default

    indifferent.

    Could've been written and handled WAY better.

  11. #71
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Swingin' Above Ya
    Posts
    11,934

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Habis View Post
    Old Bobby: Because what I do with my dick it is none of their business.
    Except when he tries to see if he is not gay.

  12. #72
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    3,901

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Habis View Post
    By the way, Emma knows, but unlike you, she is respectful enough as to not meddle with my private feelings.
    Emma Frost straight up violated Bobby and tried to have him shot dead. Frost fans sure have a way of warping the facts about that cheap and abusive character.

  13. #73
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    3,627

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DDD View Post
    Emma Frost straight up violated Bobby and tried to have him shot dead. Frost fans sure have a way of warping the facts about that cheap and abusive character.
    While there is truth in your statement, I doubt Emma knew bobby was gay at those points.

  14. #74
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    3,901

    Default

    She knew when he kept doing her hair and make up on her comatose body.

  15. #75
    CBR's Good Fairy Kieran_Frost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Bristol, UK
    Posts
    8,499

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalen O. View Post
    Yeah but that's kinda my point? Your topic is pretty broadly about peoples' various reactions to Iceman's sexuality and how well or how poorly Bendis handled it, but doesn't consider that some reactions could be colored by the fact that gay or straight weren't the only options, and Bendis' dismissal of bisexuality as an option WAS the problem people had with it.
    I'm sorry it just didn't occur to me, simply because Bendis already explored that possibility, and it was discounted. The same reasons I didn't include "he's still str8"; it's not a valid option now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalen O. View Post
    Basically, bi erasure is the way characters who have been shown attracted to two genders are re-labeled as gay or straight without any real discussion, or else they 'don't really like labels' or just otherwise avoid being pinned down as actual bisexual representation, under the label bisexual. For instance, when Willow on Buffy the Vampire Slayer comes out is an example of bi erasure, not because it's not totally plausible that she was a lesbian and just never had the awareness or opportunity to explore that before she met Tara. The issue was the fact that there was never any attempt to explain her prior relationships or feelings for Xander or Oz. All her confusion stemmed from the fact that she wasn't sure of her feelings or attraction to Tara initially...but once she accepted that, it was just accepted that meant she was gay, there was no attempt or even acknowledgment of a need to address her previous feelings for men, gay or straight were the only real options and if she were one she couldn't be the other, so nothing more needed to be said.

    Yes, Bendis acknowledged bisexuality exists in his story, but the way it was framed made it clear that it was only mentioned to show it wasn't a possibility. But there was no actual attempt to examine what Bobby's previous relationships meant in light of an attraction to men. Just 'take Jean's word for it', he's full gay. It's the fact that Bobby's previous relationships aren't even WORTH examining for possible attraction to women, because all that's needed to dismiss that is the word of a character who's not even Bobby.

    Bisexual men and women don't just have to reconcile having an attraction to the same sex, they also have to reconcile having an attraction to the opposite sex in the face of a society that still largely (and loudly) insists that you're really just one or the other and anything else is just denial, a phase, experimentation, etc. It's an incredibly insidious thing trying to come to terms with your sexual orientation and not being able to trust if you're actually being honest with yourself about your feelings just because every other voice is telling you your claims of being attracted to both genders are somehow inherently suspect. We feel the same need for representation as any gay man or lesbian.

    So when you have a story that retcons the sexuality of a character who has displayed previous romantic and sexual attractions to women for DECADES (and within his own internal monologues and thoughts just as much as through dialogue)....and we're told through a couple of lines spoken by another character to just go ahead and chalk that up to denial or confusion rather than acknowledge that it COULD be a possibility and it merited actual exploration of Bobby's thoughts and feelings to pin down what was truly going on there, like all of that is something that CAN be dismissed with just a couple of lines....it's problematic. And I fully believe that Bendis didn't intend for it to be, but precisely BECAUSE bisexual issues and awareness is so rarely raised as something for writers to consider, is why it needs to be included in discussions of even just the aftermath of creative decisions like this.
    My one question mark is this; purely because that (having str8 relationships before they come out) is something that gay men do. Not every time a gay character comes out do we need a long exploration of bisexuality. Bendis acknowledged the question, which is good; but the answer was no. He isn't bi. What more is needed? It is common for some gay men to come out as bi, then later come out as gay, this happens. But plenty just come out as gay and don't explore their bisexuality; or know it's not a possibility. This isn't uncommon either.

    I would agree if we only ever had gay males and no bisexual ones, then YES I could see your point. But that's not true at Marvel. We have bisexual characters, we've only had bisexual men as solo stars (no gay ones). At Marvel bisexuality isn't ignored. Bobby is our first A-list gay star; let us have this one.

    P.S. the only bierasure that happens at Marvel was with Herc; that is a far worthier place to wage this war (sadly)
    "We are Shakespeare. We are Michelangelo. We are Tchaikovsky. We are Turing. We are Mercury. We are Wilde. We are Lincoln, Lorca, Leonardo da Vinci. We are Alexander the Great. We are Fredrick the Great. We are Rustin. We are Addams. We are Marsha! Marsha Marsha Marsha! We so generous, we DeGeneres. We are Ziggy Stardust hooked to the silver screen. Controversially we are Malcolm X. We are Plato. We are Aristotle. We are RuPaul, god dammit! And yes, we are Woolf."

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •