ULTIMATE TRUTH! How do CBR posters feel about Iceman being gay?

[Star_Jammer]

Bobby? A-lister?

Yeah, about that...

[Magnito]

Pretty happy with it. Iceman was always one of my favourite x-men, and now I get to see a little bit more of myself in the character.

[vitruvian]

A simple poll; now we've (finally ) had this confirmed in Uncanny X-men #600. What is the overall consensus of the revelation byt CBR posters? This is not necessary about the way it was told (i.e. execution, Bendis' writing style); but more the concept or the over-reacting result of BOTH our Bobby's being revealed as gay. Regardless how it was done, it's done now. So how do you feel about this (since it will, in all likelihood, never change)? This was a game changer for Iceman, and you can never go back home again.

Could there be an option for absolutely fine with the character being gay (and in his adult version, closeted), but wondering if there's not a problem of bisexual erasure here? After all, this reveal can be interpreted in one of two ways:

1) Bobby has always been completely homosexual and closeted, and therefore there was not an ounce of real sexual attraction present in any of his relationships with women, past stories notwithstanding and therefore retconned.

2) Bobby has actually experienced sexual attraction to women, and therefore definitionally speaking would be bisexual rather than gay, but neither version of the character speaks to this and the existence of bisexuality is tacitly ignored in the story... i.e., bisexual erasure.

Or is there a third option here that I am not seeing?

[Kalen O.]

BOBBY: Maybe I'm bi
JEAN: They say everybody is.
BOBBY: They do?
JEAN: But I think you're more... fully gay.
BOBBY: Yeah I know.

What is there left to say??? I mean really, it's an absurd criticism to imply it was ignored (it wasn't); it was simply discounted. It was brought up, it was mentioned, he's not bi, he's gay. Really what is left to explore???


Here's my problem. If Bobby's "bisexuality" had to be explored (as in, he needs to find out for himself) that takes time. And during that time, gay fans are left still absent a gay A-lister (because it's not been confirmed, because he's exploring). And IF the conclusion of that exploration was he was gay... frankly I don't think that would have satisfied bisexual fans (esp. considering how it was "tantalised" as a possibility). Hand on heart, if Bobby wasn't sure if he was bi or gay, and explored this, and came out as gay; can you TRULY say you wouldn't feel a little raw about it? I don't think a slow, elongated removal of the bandaid would have been better than a quick rip.


In a character that isn't bisexual? Frankly... YES. And I don't mean that unkindly, but the character is gay not bisexual. The need to explore the bisexuality of a gay character isn't relevant. If there was a pattern of Marvel ignoring bisexuality, and always outing a character who had hetrosexual romances as gay; I'd support these objections. But there isn't. Far from it. Every solo star = bisexual. BOTH A-listers = bisexual (Loki and Mystique). When Loki was outed as bi, do you recall anyone complaining that the fact he might be gay should be explored? Did you hear anyone say it was offensive that the writer didn't even "name drop" homosexuality as a possibility? When Prodigy was outed? When Daken? Herc? (too soon?)

I'm not being dismissive, but I just don't see what can be gained from anything more than what Bendis gave us??? At-this rate would it have been better if Bendis didn't even mention the possibility of bisexuality? Would that have been better (akin to how homosexuality isn't mentioned when Daken or Prodigy or Loki were outed).

You're absolutely being dismissive. You've crafted a topic all about varied reactions to Bobby being gay, which is a CHOICE the WRITER made, not something innately true of the character, and you seem to think there's no need or place for people to discuss being upset bisexuality wasn't given more consideration as a possibility? And in the same breath, you don't think bi erasure is an issue here?

If you want to make this a competition (which I had no intention of doing) please don't act like bisexual readers get so much representation at Marvel. As you yourself said, there's an issue with erasure with Hercules, and I'd posit the same is true of Rictor, who Peter David expressed he initially viewed as bi but later described Rictor's previous relationships with women as exactly what we're talking about here, comparing him to someone who ultimately decides they're gay after having relationships with the opposite sex which were ultimately unfulfilling....which basically leaves bi representation as Mystique, Daken, Electro, Loki, Moondragon, Prodigy and Julie Power....

Prodigy and Julie Power being the only heroes who claim the label bisexual definitively, though Shatterstar remains a possibility but has refrained from identifying that way. Moondragon has a history of being bisexual, but she was literally a villain every time she's shown identifying as bisexual, her recent heroic stints have all been with her 'settled down' with Phyla-Vell with zero reference to her bisexual history. Most of the bisexuals at Marvel, who you claim is so good with bisexuality, are villains. Tell me, if all there was to point to was gay villains and people asked if you were satisfied with that, would you be happy? You don't recognize the LONG problematic history of queer coding villains?

Meanwhile, off the top of my head...Northstar, Wiccan, Hulkling, Rictor, Phyla-Vell, America Chavez, Karolina, Anole, Karma, Benjamin Deeds, Striker, Ultimate Colossus, and so on. All of whom are heroes with varying degree of visibility (and we're not exactly talking any Z-list characters here, these are all characters who have appeared prominently in high profile books within the past ten years).

And you're actually asking why we can't just let you have this ONE A-list character be gay?

Again. Julie Power and Prodigy. Possibly Shatterstar.

Those are the confirmed bisexual Marvel heroes. And it's not like Marvel exists in a vacuum, tell me, do you honestly believe bisexual representation (especially bi male representation or bisexuality presented as something other than a punchline or something for titillation) - do you HONESTLY believe bi representation is anywhere near on part with gay representation in media today?

I don't know where all these solo bisexual heroes you're talking about are, but that's it other than Hercules who you yourself see the issues with holding up as bi representation. All other prominent bi Marvel characters are villains. Mystique, Daken, Electro, Loki....that's who we should be content with and why it's excessive for us to have wanted Bobby (with his decades of romantic and sexual interests in women) to be shown as bi?

You're actually asking bisexual readers to suck it up and just be happy for you?

I have clearly expressed in the Uncanny #600 thread that I AM HAPPY for gay readers who now have Bobby to view as someone to represent them, and I have said nothing anywhere to suggest otherwise. I have literally only asked for the bisexual option to be included in the discussion, and if I'm growing more contentious, it's because it is OFFENSIVE for you to repeatedly insist that this has no business being in this conversation and we should be good allies and just suck it up and be happy for you, while our just as relevant wishes for representation go right back to being ignored? How is this so hard to juggle? Why can't I be happy for you and still critical of how the story was handled, specifically in regards to bisexuality? You're the one acting like it must be mutually exclusive.

And you act like bi erasure isn't an issue? You continue not to get how people can acknowledge bisexuality exists while still being completely dismissive of it and not wanting to even so much as ENTERTAIN it as a possibility?

And for the record, while someone coming out as gay after multiple relationships with the opposite sex IS completely true to life, you said it's not like Marvel has a history of showing this specific dynamic with gay characters who have shown opposite sex attraction....

Again, sorry, this just isn't true.

Teen Bobby's storyline here is virtually identical to Striker's coming out in Avengers Academy, just that one had no intrusive telepath provoking Striker's actions, America Chavez was in a relationship with a guy before declaring herself a lesbian, etc.

Peter David said this initially about Rictor when he came out:

"I have much more fun tweaking the fans than actually spelling anything out...I certainly don't think we could say at this point that Rictor is definitively gay. I think we could make the argument that he's bi, but I don't see the point at this juncture in spelling it out – not because of any sense of homophobia or anything like that but out of a sense that I think it's more entertaining and more thought-provoking if we keep it ambiguous."

And yet ultimately, he had this to say on Rictor:

It had been earlier suggested that Rictor was primarily bi-sexual, explaining many years of romances with women alongside his on-going friendship with Shatterstar. With this idea now canon, David sees Rictor settling down. "He had his involvements with females, sure, just as women who eventually decided they were lesbians had involvements with men that they ultimately considered unfulfilling." David points out, "at this point, at least the way I'm writing him, he's fully committed to the gay lifestyle. He's become honest about it both with others and himself."

So again, it IS positive that Marvel now has another LGBT character as high profile as Bobby. I DO prefer him this way to keeping him straight, even if I'd prefer him bi.

But please don't act like this is breaking new story ground and that this was an angle on a gay character that was really lacking in comics, where bisexual heroes are so abundantly and positively represented already. It's not true, and I highly resent it being spun that way just to dismiss discussion of bisexual representation here as worthwhile.

[Ebony]

I hope she gets a scene with him later on.

northstar_Confession.jpg

I would say Nortstar needs a recalibration.

[Ebony]

Vindicated.. I've been saying it for years. Also loving the phobia it's exposing throughout the forums of the world.

I don't think anyone is afraid when voicing their opinions and you do them a disservice implying such motives.

[Ebony]

11828829_909114369161946_4392637857712815367_n.jpg Well said.

[Timbales]

It's just in Bobby's own word he knew from very begining that he's gay not bi and every relationship he had was only an attempt to force himself to try to be a straight. So he lied to every girlfriend he had. He never was even attracted to them because his gay not bi.

That's my issue with how this was handled, too. I think it would have been a lot better if Adult Bobby stated he really wasn't sure what he felt, that he was trying to feel with women the way he thought he was supposed to feel. Being attracted to a man could have been something he never allowed himself to consider.

[Shockdingo]

Where's my "this whole thing was terribly written" option?

Agreed, Bendis just clumsily did this.

I would have loved it if had gone like this:

Jeen: You are gay!
Old Bobby: Actually, I'm heteroromantic bisexual.
Jeen: Wha...?
Young Bobby: What does that even mean?
Old Bobby: I am sexually attracted to both, but I won't romance men. Most of my male friends are both hetero and assholes, anyways.
Young Bobby: But why doesn't any of the other X-Men know about that?
Old Bobby: Because what I do with my dick is none of their business. Also, they are assholes and I don't want to discuss my romantic life with them. By the way, Emma knows, but unlike you, she is respectful enough as to not meddle with my private feelings.
Jeen: Liking both? Is that even a thing? You are making this up!
Old Bobby: Go back to the sixties, you nosy bitch.

Hah, now that would have been fun.

My whole feelings on this are I think it would have been interesting if they made him bi. I felt that Bendis executed this awkwardly and just threw it out there to leave his mark on the character eternally (no one is going to change this). Honestly haven't been reading X-men for a while, but from what I've seen and what some others I discussed this with, he didn't really build up on this. He just dropped this, got headlines and now that he's gone wont touch the character again. I do hope that a future writer makes good use of this new revelation for Bobby though. I've liked the character for years, but holy crap...he's never gotten used to his full potential plotwise, chracterwise, whateverwise.

[RCX]

I think if someone feels upset or angry about it, it doesn't necessarily makes them homophobic. I voted for indifferent because honestly, I don't care a lot about Bobby but I think retconing a 50 year old character is a bit weird. On the other hand, who knew Olympic star Bruce Jenner (twice married and 5-6 kids) would become a women after all these years?

So... these thing can happen.

[Project Initiative Cascada]

I hope she gets a scene with him later on.

Holy crap. Auntie Emma really knows best. Under a better writer, there needs to be an epic scene with those two. She would love to tease him and then congratulate Bobby on him finding himself.

It is quite funny that the whole "Is Iceman Gay" thread from the previous forum was started from speculation in the Emma appreciation thread!

[whiterabbit]

Another writer should've done it. Bendis has been pretty terrible, lately.

[Ebony]

I think if someone feels upset or angry about it, it doesn't necessarily makes them homophobic. I voted for indifferent because honestly, I don't care a lot about Bobby but I think retconing a 50 year old character is a bit weird. On the other hand, who knew Olympic star Bruce Jenner (twice married and 5-6 kids) would become a women after all these years?

So... these thing can happen.

Agreed. The matter of Bobby being gay, as a long time reader, really isn't that much of an issue with me. What is is the ramifications to all the stories he's been in the reveal and #600 has now put into the context of all the reading of Bobby prior to (because like it or not, time travel or not, all these stories have inter-connectivity) and changes the context to a lot of events that involve Bobby with a woman and frankly other characters.

Stuff I think of most glaringly is the Bobby/Lorna/Alex "Love triangle" that was so prominent a story point, they made an animated episode about it. If we are to take what Bobby says in #600 as 100% fact, he's known without a doubt that he has been gay since he was a teenager. But despite that knowledge about himself intentionally pursued relationships he knew were doomed to fail all because he didn't want the extra added burden of being included in yet another minority group. These actions caused some pretty messed up emotional stuff to Polaris that she's still dealing with to this day. Opal, who finally fell in love with Hiro but Bobby held on, when he really could have just let her go to be happy, but because he didn't it not only costed Hiro (in a way) his life (Fighting Bobby over her), she went on to have a baby by another man who looked like him, and they tried to get together to for awhile to raise the baby (But that story was dropped and forgotten).

I think his code name now has nothing to do with his powers, but to his emotional state when it comes to relationships with women because he was the cause of them always being put on ice.

[Kurolegacy]

Agreed. The matter of Bobby being gay, as a long time reader, really isn't that much of an issue with me. What is is the ramifications to all the stories he's been in the reveal and #600 has now put into the context of all the reading of Bobby prior to (because like it or not, time travel or not, all these stories have inter-connectivity) and changes the context to a lot of events that involve Bobby with a woman and frankly other characters.

Stuff I think of most glaringly is the Bobby/Lorna/Alex "Love triangle" that was so prominent a story point, they made an animated episode about it. If we are to take what Bobby says in #600 as 100% fact, he's known without a doubt that he has been gay since he was a teenager. But despite that knowledge about himself intentionally pursued relationships he knew were doomed to fail all because he didn't want the extra added burden of being included in yet another minority group. These actions caused some pretty messed up emotional stuff to Polaris that she's still dealing with to this day. Opal, who finally fell in love with Hiro but Bobby held on, when he really could have just let her go to be happy, but because he didn't it not only costed Hiro (in a way) his life (Fighting Bobby over her), she went on to have a baby by another man who looked like him, and they tried to get together to for awhile to raise the baby (But that story was dropped and forgotten).

I think his code name now has nothing to do with his powers, but to his emotional state when it comes to relationships with women because he was the cause of them always being put on ice.

Honestly when it comes to the kick Marvel is on lately, what do they care about a character's rich history when they can cash in on the PC dollar? Continuity and rich character history are pretty much second class to them.

[numberthirty]

Honestly when it comes to the kick Marvel is on lately, what do they care about a character's rich history when they can cash in on the PC dollar? Continuity and rich character history are pretty much second class to them.

Rich history?

We talking "The Clone Wars" and "Heroes Reborn"?