New Avengers #19 (spoilers)

[Rheged]

Namor was awesome this issue, as usual. The only guy to face up to the ugly truth, and serve it up to the Justice League, while everyone else is lying to them. Him and Batman are the only two who see how things are, and both of them were doing their damnedest to wake everyone else up.

Got to hand it to Schiti, even with the odd hair cut for Namor, he's great at expressions and body language.

And we have yet another issue, where Dr. Fate does / says more than Dr. Strange. What a waste.

[Rheged]

And still no one listens to Black Swan. The Great Wheel crushes all hope, destroys all morality. She's been telling them from the start they are doomed.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Namor listened to her / figured out the score. He was saying they were all dead men back in #3 or #4.

[brainwasher]

It's not just heroes that will be killed. There is an entire planet of people who will die as well. What happened to Dr. Strange having the power to move planets and put them into another sky? Norn mentions they (illuminati) had words of power. It's looking more and more like he just sold his soul to become a black priest. How about Tony saying "this is it" with this being what old Clint told him he could prevent but believed he didn't have it in him to do it?

Well I think it's the point of the whole story. They should be heroes (like in "I accomplish my goal without compromising my values") but they take a dark road and they pay for that (Stark losing all his friends as is already been said many times, BP losing the respect of his people and being banned from Wakanda, Strange probably becoming a Black Priest or at least a corrupted necromancer). Namor in the context of the story seems to be the one that realizes and accepts the consequences of their ways (like we've seen in the issue with him and BP). I don't even see Namor's behavior as cynicism, when he talks with BP in one of the previous issues he makes quite clear he understands that given the road they've taken he can't think anymore of himself as a noble, heroic man.

[Punisher007]

Except that we already had the whole "Tony Stark does problematic things, loses all of his friends/allies and is hated/reviled" back in Civil War. And it got REALLY old after awhile. The next couple of years were basically the "dump on Tony and blame him for everything regardless of whether it was actually his fault or not" era. I have zero desire to see it happen again, been there done that hated it the first time.

[FriendRoss]

This book is so great. I'm super elitist about it. If you "get it" you are cool, if not sorry. This book lays and picks up so many faceted concepts it doesn't have time for fisticuffs. It's to base and simple

I love they the great society's plan was the same as cap's

Panther to the justice society "terrible thing"


Gotta go to work but I could go on about this book for pages

[MindofShadow]

And we have yet another issue, where Dr. Fate does / says more than Dr. Strange. What a waste.

It is.

If you took all the lines given to all the alternate reality people Hickman has created and gave them to the members of the Illuminati, this book would be better.

Poor Strange. I like the character but he isn't one of my super favorites. If I was a Strange fanboy, I would be extremely bitter. The most powerful dude in the group who would have a totally different viewpoint from a totally different background... reduced to hanging out in in the background, getting owned by Maw, having one issue where he predictably sells his soul, and mumbling.

His only use so far is mind wiping Cap (that didn't work) and transporting the NA members who can't fly in his bubble transportation service.

[Sprite]

Namor continues to be awesome, things are spiraling down fast, and I'm loving every moment. Poor Reed, though.

Got to hand it to Schiti, even with the odd hair cut for Namor, he's great at expressions and body language.

And we have yet another issue, where Dr. Fate does / says more than Dr. Strange. What a waste.

I agree. I love how Schiti is handling this book.

I also hope that Hickman will do something with Dr. Strange soon. The window dressing routine has gotten way past irritating.

[ShaokhaN]

Well there had to be someone to start the fight. Namor being reckless wasn't even a surprise to me.
The conversation about "which earth should us destroy" wouldn't go anywhere after all, since no one want it to be their own earth.

Yes, which is why they should have been working together towards finding a solution instead of debating which Earth would survive (Rider's fault) and fighting (Namor's fault).

Also Namor was absolutely right to do what he did. It was obvious where this was going to end up. Dancing around it was going to make it worse.

How is it "obvious" in any way that the two teams together wouldn't have been able to find a solution to this particular incursion which wouldn't have involved destroying one of the two Earths? The Great Society haven't revealed their third solution yet, Dr. Strange has not made use of his new powers yet, the two teams haven't had the occasion to properly share any solution ideas/information... Namor assaulting the other team like that was beyond stupid - not only did it prevent them from working together with cooler heads (the Rider would eventually have calmed down), it endangered his own Earth, considering the Great Society might very have been capable of taking out the Illuminati.

Namor is just getting tired of the waiting and posturing. He's already concluded that there is no solution to this problem and it is kill or be killed. That's been his entire argument from issue 1.

...which is a stupid conclusion considering he's in no position to come to it. He's not among the smartest in the group, he has no idea of the extent of Strange's new powers, and he doesn't know what the Great Society's third solution was. He simply did not have enough information yet to conclude that they would not have been able to find some kind of solution.

If you're looking for action then you are reading the wrong book. And after 19 issues that's only your fault at this point. New Avengers has been more focused on the characters and their dealing with this massive universal threat. The fighting has always been secondary. And I don't know how you can say this is dragging when every issue reveals something new about the Illuminati and their mental state. That this issue is mostly argument and discussion makes sense when you are dealing with the smartest characters from their respective universes and no one wants a fight. The Illuminati were interested in them to begin with because they thought that the Great Society had figured out a new way of dealing with the problem. That was their main objective and what was on everyone's mind. Of course the story is then going to center around that whole idea. This isn't Civil War after all and these characters (Namor being the exception) from the start have always been reluctant to pull the trigger.

Although I very much agree that the interest of this series lies with the dilemma the Illuminati face and not with potential fights, the same dilemma and moral issues have dragged on horribly for several issues already. That's why we've had the exact same discussions with regards to the morality of destroying another inhabited Earth for the last few NA threads. Hickman could really have made a better job at providing character development and morality discussions in fewer issues. This particular Illuminati vs GS fight has been teased for so long (even on the NA #18 and NA #19 covers) that it's perfectly legitimate to point out the story is moving at a pretty slow pace.

Not counting what they may be about to do, what have the Illuminati done that is so bad? They destroyed an empty shell of a planet. That's it.

Exactly. The dialog is way too heavy-handed at times - yes, they mind-wiped Cap and prepared for the eventuality of having to destroy an inhabited world, but they've hardly done "horrible things" compared to what the Avengers in general have been responsible for in the past. Of course, one could also call a "horrible thing" the fact that they haven't shared their knowledge of incursions with other people, but that wasn't what Reed was referring to.

I love they the great society's plan was the same as cap's

By "plan" you mean "lack of plan", right? ,-)

[FriendRoss]

and im at work and till thinking about it


namor was great.. in this ish he really showed off his endearing quality of being someone you love having on your side but hate going against


found the contrast great between the psuedo DC universe and the Marvel universe. to me the dc angle has always been more about pure heroics where marvel loves to dip into shades of grey and science a little bit more. so of course the illuminati are packing beyond belief and the great society are just like lambs. of course batman being the most marvel dc person took a look of this group of sketchy individuals that show up and he is like "what do you all have planned"

[Mahes]

How is it "obvious" in any way that the two teams together wouldn't have been able to find a solution to this particular incursion which wouldn't have involved destroying one of the two Earths? The Great Society haven't revealed their third solution yet, Dr. Strange has not made use of his new powers yet, the two teams haven't had the occasion to properly share any solution ideas/information... Namor assaulting the other team like that was beyond stupid - not only did it prevent them from working together with cooler heads (the Rider would eventually have calmed down), it endangered his own Earth, considering the Great Society might very have been capable of taking out the Illuminati.

A fight was going to happen. Look at the context of the conversation leading up to Namor attacking. Both teams had the ugly truth in their faces and the suspicion involved would have led to this. Could they have cooperated? Perhaps but look at what the Great Society had learned about the Illuminati. They've watched other worlds die, built world killers, and mystically sensed the darkness on them. Plus the Illuminati dancing around the fact they were going to destroy their world.

Say what you will about Namor but he was the most honest out of the entire group.

[KOSLOX]

I kind of wish this incursion happened in a major city instead of out in the BFE of great society world. It'd be interesting to see the Illuminati trying to save civillians who they are ultimately going to end up killing anyway.

That would up the moral hypocrasy to eleven.

[Maverick]

I get Namor. Better villain than victim.

Agreed

Speculation
Thanos gets free, finds out about the incursions
creates his own team that has no problem destroying worlds to save 616 universe
Namor and Maximus joins him.

[KOSLOX]

A fight was going to happen. Look at the context of the conversation leading up to Namor attacking. Both teams had the ugly truth in their faces and the suspicion involved would have led to this. Could they have cooperated? Perhaps but look at what the Great Society had learned about the Illuminati. They've watched other worlds die, built world killers, and mystically sensed the darkness on them. Plus the Illuminati dancing around the fact they were going to destroy their world.

Say what you will about Namor but he was the most honest out of the entire group.

I really want to know what happened to "the one they don't talk about".

[Mahes]

I really want to know what happened to "the one they don't talk about".

Me too. I think it'll be revealed during the course of this arc. My hunch is they destroyed a world which makes Sun God so passionate about "Everything Lives". They do have that memorial after all.

[ShaokhaN]

A fight was going to happen. Look at the context of the conversation leading up to Namor attacking. Both teams had the ugly truth in their faces and the suspicion involved would have led to this. Could they have cooperated? Perhaps but look at what the Great Society had learned about the Illuminati. They've watched other worlds die, built world killers, and mystically sensed the darkness on them. Plus the Illuminati dancing around the fact they were going to destroy their world.

Say what you will about Namor but he was the most honest out of the entire group.

No, a fight wasn't necessarily going to happen. The Illuminati members were all very conciliatory, repeatedly insisting that they and the GS work together. Even Black Panther told Namor to shut up. On the GS' side, Sun God was the most vocal after Rider and we know he wants to find a peaceful solution more than anything - he was only convinced to fight after Namor attacked Rider. Rider was alone in his confrontational stance and could have been calmed down if the Illuminati had kept putting emphasis on working together to find a solution. Of course, we know there was going to be a fight because we're comic book readers, but there's nothing within the story which should lead one to believe a fight was unavoidable. Namor acted impulsively and stupidly, for the reasons I listed above.