New Avengers #19 (spoilers)

[Ekie]

Looks like Sungod will take on the hulk.

Who didn't see that coming?

also Iron man vs lady flash
Panther vs Batman



I hope we get a full fight issue. We deserve a little punching.

[MichaelAngel0]

No, a fight wasn't necessarily going to happen. The Illuminati members were all very conciliatory, repeatedly insisting that they and the GS work together. Even Black Panther told Namor to shut up. On the GS' side, Sun God was the most vocal after Rider and we know he wants to find a peaceful solution more than anything - he was only convinced to fight after Namor attacked Rider. Rider was alone in his confrontational stance and could have been calmed down if the Illuminati had kept putting emphasis on working together to find a solution. Of course, we know there was going to be a fight because we're comic book readers, but there's nothing within the story which should lead one to believe a fight was unavoidable. Namor acted impulsively and stupidly, for the reasons I listed above.

Dude, I know you've read the chapter so are you seriously telling me that this discussion wasn't leading to a fight?


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[Vic Vega]

Even a Captain Ersatz versions of Batman and Superman are never going condone
any option that involves killing innocents.

Note that the fake Justice League's credo is "Everybody lives".

[Strangefan]

Going to make a prediction now. Since this whole Great Society thing is supposed to be the main story until issue 24, I think they are going to take 4 issues for this whole dang fight, and almost the entire time Strange will be using his new awesome power to hold the two universes apart, way, way in the background. That way they can have 4 entire issues of the two teams having big fights, pensive moments, lots of conversation, with occasional cuts to Strange, not saying a word. We'll also have Maximus continuing to have conversations with himself, while releasing bad guys in his endless quest to make things more interesting. Not dissing him, I think Maximus is kind of fun, but leaving him in any place without a keeper is major dumb. But wild cards do make for interesting story.

I am sure when this whole story is all done, it will seem lyrically beautiful, but on a monthly basis these incremental advances, and focus on a chosen few is trying for this reader.

I am curious, though, with the ability to move worlds, suppose they use it, what if they simply switch both Earths. Would that defeat this whole destroy an Earth clause? There is no reason for there not to be alternative universe Kree and Skrulls etc to interact with, who might be very surprised to have a whole bunch of new heroes to deal with. Also no reason to not be able to switch things back when the story is done. Just pondering.

[Mark]

Or since this is focused on where the worlds meet why not just move them further apart?

Going to make a prediction now. Since this whole Great Society thing is supposed to be the main story until issue 24, I think they are going to take 4 issues for this whole dang fight, and almost the entire time Strange will be using his new awesome power to hold the two universes apart, way, way in the background. That way they can have 4 entire issues of the two teams having big fights, pensive moments, lots of conversation, with occasional cuts to Strange, not saying a word. We'll also have Maximus continuing to have conversations with himself, while releasing bad guys in his endless quest to make things more interesting. Not dissing him, I think Maximus is kind of fun, but leaving him in any place without a keeper is major dumb. But wild cards do make for interesting story.

I am sure when this whole story is all done, it will seem lyrically beautiful, but on a monthly basis these incremental advances, and focus on a chosen few is trying for this reader.

I am curious, though, with the ability to move worlds, suppose they use it, what if they simply switch both Earths. Would that defeat this whole destroy an Earth clause? There is no reason for there not to be alternative universe Kree and Skrulls etc to interact with, who might be very surprised to have a whole bunch of new heroes to deal with. Also no reason to not be able to switch things back when the story is done. Just pondering.

[Mark]

I get Namor. Namor is at the point where he knows that he isnt going to be the hero of his own story, but he sure as hell wont be the victim either. Its true to the character. Better villain than victim.

*Not if you are the victim to Namor's villain.

[Mark]

I've argued this with the guy behind the counter at my lcs, I keep saying that heros don't blow up worlds and he keeps saying its the only way to save other worlds. I don't agree. There's always another way. Bottom line is that they have a reason to blow up this world, but they have no right to blow it up and if they do blow it up they are no longer heroes, they are murderers. Marvel loves to makes it's heroes villains and then redeem them, but murdering billions of people isn't something you can come back from. So I wonder how far the writers will go with this. If they do murder billions then I want to see Reed sit down with Franklin and Val and explain it to them.

[jphamlore]

I've argued this with the guy behind the counter at my lcs, I keep saying that heros don't blow up worlds and he keeps saying its the only way to save other worlds. I don't agree. There's always another way. Bottom line is that they have a reason to blow up this world, but they have no right to blow it up and if they do blow it up they are no longer heroes, they are murderers. Marvel loves to makes it's heroes villains and then redeem them, but murdering billions of people isn't something you can come back from. So I wonder how far the writers will go with this. If they do murder billions then I want to see Reed sit down with Franklin and Val and explain it to them.

In the book itself the Illuminati have been given a clear alternative that one of their members in other incarnations, Beast, has successfully implemented: evacuate Earth and then blow it up. The Illuminati are just refusing to face the facts, that they have observed for themselves using Reed's Bridge, that they can't win in their present course.

I think what's going to happen is the Illuminati are going to wind up murdering billions but the whole thing will be reset when Hickman leaves Marvel, just like Dan Jurgens run reset Thor after The Reigning. The Illuminati will have the whole thing almost literally blow up in their faces and they'll have to go back to the Earth of the first incursion to stop the whole thing. And then Hickman's runs on Fantastic Four and Avengers will all sort of go poof like they never happened ...

Note that in the New Avengers book itself, Tony Stark was deducing the Bridge could have been used to observe the origin of the Incursions. The ground has already been prepared in the book for the reset.

[ShaokhaN]

Dude, I know you've read the chapter so are you seriously telling me that this discussion wasn't leading to a fight?

Yes, I am seriously telling you that without Namor there was no reason to assume that it would necessarily have gone to a fight. None of the GS want to destroy another world, and everyone from the Illuminati (except for Namor) wanted to work with the GS to find a solution.

[Strangefan]

Or since this is focused on where the worlds meet why not just move them further apart?

Moving them further apart took the Infinity Gauntlet, and I don't think they want Strange being perceived.as having that much
power.

The more I think of switching universes the more I like it. As the Incursions keep happening they keep entering unfamiliar worlds. In which case they could end up in the Ultimates universe before it is all over.

I guess the whole how are they going to solve this big mess is what has kept me waiting around.

[Daeron]

Namor made a stupid discussion of course, which he based solely on selfish needs. He's too proud to let the future make him be this thing, so he decides to make the call right here and there before events force him.

Yes, I am seriously telling you that without Namor there was no reason to assume that it would necessarily have gone to a fight. None of the GS want to destroy another world, and everyone from the Illuminati (except for Namor) wanted to work with the GS to find a solution.

Maybe, it's obvious the GS doesn't want to consider blowing up one of the earths as a last resort. Some of the Illuminati were trying to beat around the bush, but to me it looked like a deal breaker. I don't think they could have lied about it either, considering the Norn's powers. So then what would follow? It's an impasse with only one solution that is viable considering they have only two hours, remove one of the two parties involved.

It's Captain America all over again if you look at it from the perspective of compromise. The Illuminati are all about compromising their ideas of what is moral and what is not, in light of ever increasing stakes. Versus Captain America and the GS, who belief right and wrong are set in stone and should account for every situation.

[MichaelAngel0]

Yes, I am seriously telling you that without Namor there was no reason to assume that it would necessarily have gone to a fight. None of the GS want to destroy another world, and everyone from the Illuminati (except for Namor) wanted to work with the GS to find a solution.

Yeah, except the fact that after Beast said what he said regarding the worst case scenario, The Norn read the Illuminati and figured out what they were capable of and the darkness that duelld in their hearts. Sun God immediately took offense to Beast's words and Rider knew exactly what they were planing to do if they failed, which they all knew they were.

Iron Man, Reed and BP just kept saying lets think of another way, but never gave any suggestions; they were just stalling the inevitable. They had no plan; didn't you see the desperation in Reed's eyes when he asked the GS? They came to the GS for answers, and it turned out that they too were in the same situation, except unlike the Illuminati it's implied that they sacrificed lives at one point to save their earth.

Namor just cut to the chase, because why build a false hope? It'd only be that much more worse at the last minute, and you can only hesitate for so long until it bites you in the ass and the destruction of both universes is the consequence. Once he heard Sun God say that all they needed was "hope", he knew blood was gonna be on their hands whether it be then or an hour from then.

[Maverick]

Moving them further apart took the Infinity Gauntlet, and I don't think they want Strange being perceived.as having that much
power.

The more I think of switching universes the more I like it. As the Incursions keep happening they keep entering unfamiliar worlds. In which case they could end up in the Ultimates universe before it is all over.

I guess the whole how are they going to solve this big mess is what has kept me waiting around.

How would the other Marvel characters fair in this, if the Illuminati repeatedly hops from world to world.

[MichaelAngel0]

Maybe, it's obvious the GS doesn't want to consider blowing up one of the earths as a last resort. Some of the Illuminati were trying to beat around the bush, but to me it looked like a deal breaker. I don't think they could have lied about it either, considering the Norn's powers. So then what would follow? It's an impasse with only one solution that is viable considering they have only two hours, remove one of the two parties involved.

It's Captain America all over again if you look at it from the perspective of compromise. The Illuminati are all about compromising their ideas of what is moral and what is not, in light of ever increasing stakes. Versus Captain America and the GS, who belief right and wrong are set in stone and should account for every situation.

Exactly, it was inevitable.

Also, I find the GS's moral code to be ironically immoral; they were willing to let two universes die just to feel good about yourself.

It's one thing for Cap to say it when they still have time to do extensive brainstorming, but it's a-whole-nother story to say that when the end is directly in front of you and that end cost the lives of countless trillions.

People talk about the Illuminati being selfish in their decisions, but look at the GS; we don't see them having discussions on how to deal with the Incursions with the rest of their world. Nope, if they can't do it then everyone dies. Period.

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[HUTHAIFA]

Namor made a stupid discussion of course, which he based solely on selfish needs. He's too proud to let the future make him be this thing, so he decides to make the call right here and there before events force him.



Maybe, it's obvious the GS doesn't want to consider blowing up one of the earths as a last resort. Some of the Illuminati were trying to beat around the bush, but to me it looked like a deal breaker. I don't think they could have lied about it either, considering the Norn's powers. So then what would follow? It's an impasse with only one solution that is viable considering they have only two hours, remove one of the two parties involved.

It's Captain America all over again if you look at it from the perspective of compromise. The Illuminati are all about compromising their ideas of what is moral and what is not, in light of ever increasing stakes. Versus Captain America and the GS, who belief right and wrong are set in stone and should account for every situation.

The Illuminati havent destroyed a populated world yet, a fact that people keep forgetting.The GS are not more heroic. They just havent had to make the big choice yet, much like the Illuminati.Lets also consider just because the Illuminati is prepared to destroy a world, doesnt mean that they all will be willing to pull the trigger.