New Avengers #19 (spoilers)

[XPac]

Yeah, except the fact that after Beast said what he said regarding the worst case scenario, The Norn read the Illuminati and figured out what they were capable of and the darkness that duelld in their hearts. Sun God immediately took offense to Beast's words and Rider knew exactly what they were planing to do if they failed, which they all knew they were.

Iron Man, Reed and BP just kept saying lets think of another way, but never gave any suggestions; they were just stalling the inevitable. They had no plan; didn't you see the desperation in Reed's eyes when he asked the GS? They came to the GS for answers, and it turned out that they too were in the same situation, except unlike the Illuminati it's implied that they sacrificed lives at one point to save their earth.

Namor just cut to the chase, because why build a false hope? It'd only be that much more worse at the last minute, and you can only hesitate for so long until it bites you in the ass and the destruction of both universes is the consequence. Once he heard Sun God say that all they needed was "hope", he knew blood was gonna be on their hands whether it be then or an hour from then.

The reasons not to cute to the chase is frankly because heroes coming up with very last minute sollutions is actually pretty common. Just because they don't have a sollution now is by no means a gurantee they won't find one later. Anyone's that ever read a comic book (or watched a cartoon or seen a movie) knows that. Obviously that's looking at it from an entirely meta perspective and there's no gurantee at all that they'd find another sollution here. Nonetheless, given their track record I think giving a bit of extra time is worth a shot.

There's more potentially gained by at least trying than there is in simply starting a fight. You can always opt to fight later if it comes to that.

[ShaokhaN]

Yeah, except the fact that after Beast said what he said regarding the worst case scenario, The Norn read the Illuminati and figured out what they were capable of and the darkness that duelld in their hearts. Sun God immediately took offense to Beast's words and Rider knew exactly what they were planing to do if they failed, which they all knew they were.

Key part: "if they failed". The point is that they should try working together first, and that's what the Illuminati were offering. The GS were apparently willing to do just that, in particular Sun God, except for Rider which kept talking about the worst-case scenario. I'm sorry, but if Namor hadn't started fighting like an idiot, where else do you think the discussion would have gone other than "we are wasting time, let's try to find a solution together"?

Iron Man, Reed and BP just kept saying lets think of another way, but never gave any suggestions; they were just stalling the inevitable. They had no plan; didn't you see the desperation in Reed's eyes when he asked the GS? They came to the GS for answers, and it turned out that they too were in the same situation, except unlike the Illuminati it's implied that they sacrificed lives at one point to save their earth.

Namor just cut to the chase, because why build a false hope? It'd only be that much more worse at the last minute, and you can only hesitate for so long until it bites you in the ass and the destruction of both universes is the consequence. Once he heard Sun God say that all they needed was "hope", he knew blood was gonna be on their hands whether it be then or an hour from then.

You do remember that Strange increased his power, right? And that the GS apparently found a third solution that they do not want to talk about? And that the two teams had shared very little ideas/information at that point? There is absolutely nothing which indicates that they might not have been able to come up with something, for example by getting Strange and the Norn to work together to push apart the two planets through magic while Reed finds a way to build a machine supplying additional energy from the others' power. And even if they didn't manage to come up with something, there was no reason not to try further than the one-minute discussion they just had.

[Strangefan]

How would the other Marvel characters fair in this, if the Illuminati repeatedly hops from world to world.

The Illuminati would be bringing their Earth with them. It would be the universe around them that would keep changing.

[Triskelle]

Curious that the not-Justice League's world has an Apocalypse Sphinx, I can't be the only one who'd love to know what happened there back in the day. As for their great secret for dealing with the unknown incursion, if you take the view that this story is effectively the New52 being destroyed by a resurgent Marvel NOW, then perhaps the secret that enabled them to survive in the first place was rebooting their entire universe, subtly (and not-so-subtly in some cases) changing their lives and the world around them in a last ditch chance to avoid destruction. A method that the Illuminati might reluctantly conclude is worth resorting to in the event of a future incursion catching them at a time where there are no other options available bar murder on a planetary scale.

[MichaelAngel0]

The reasons not to cute to the chase is frankly because heroes coming up with very last minute sollutions is actually pretty common. Just because they don't have a sollution now is by no means a gurantee they won't find one later. Anyone's that ever read a comic book (or watched a cartoon or seen a movie) knows that. Obviously that's looking at it from an entirely meta perspective and there's no gurantee at all that they'd find another sollution here. Nonetheless, given their track record I think giving a bit of extra time is worth a shot.

There's more potentially gained by at least trying than there is in simply starting a fight. You can always opt to fight later if it comes to that.

Key part: "if they failed". The point is that they should try working together first, and that's what the Illuminati were offering. The GS were apparently willing to do just that, in particular Sun God, except for Rider which kept talking about the worst-case scenario. I'm sorry, but if Namor hadn't started fighting like an idiot, where else do you think the discussion would have gone other than "we are wasting time, let's try to find a solution together"?

Normally I'd agree with that, but these guys weren't really in the mindset to come up with anything:

- Both Namor and BP have already resigned themselves to their fate to become murderers.

- Strange is clearly in a very dark and fcked up place right now. The annual will elaborate on that.

- Both Reed and Tony are cracking under the pressure, with Tony straight up telling Reed he has no idea what they're doing and Black Swan told Reed what he himself believes to be true (he's useless). Did you not see the desperation in Reed's eyes when he asked the GS if they were sure they had no plans? He was basically pleading, because he honestly doesn't think he can come up with anything.

- Banner just got there, and is witnessing this for the first time.

- Beast is undecided, but clearly is trying to convince himself that to do the unspeakable is the best solution for the many (meaning 2 universes and one saved Earth vs the destruction of both universes and both Earths).

They weren't there to "talk" about how they could work together, they went to the GS grasping at straws. The GS world was the first other Earth they'd seen successfully defend it using different means, and after seeing so many horrible ends to others world their desperation made them think "YES!!! Finally! Maybe they can finally give us some answers!" Only to find out that the GS is in a worse situation than they are. At that point, all the "talk" about working together was just them beating around the bush; their conscious and guilt for the inevitable horror they know they're about to be forced to commit was making them hesitate.

The moment Sun God said "Hope", Namor saw Cap all over again, except in the form of the entire GS: they'd just used their best bet and were completely out of options, and decided to rely on "hope" when Annhilation looked them dead in the eyes. They were useless to them, and he was not about hesitate when it's HIS world vs theirs.

You do remember that Strange increased his power, right? And that the GS apparently found a third solution that they do not want to talk about? And that the two teams had shared very little ideas/information thus far? There is absolutely nothing which indicates that they might not have been able to come up with something, for example by getting Strange and the Norn to work together to push apart the two planets through magic while Reed finds a way to build a machine supplying additional energy from the others' power. And even if they didn't manage to come up with something, there was no reason not to try further than the one-minute discussion they just had.

1) Yes, Strange got a power boost, but we have no idea if he knows how to completely use his new powers, let alone move a planet yet. As, shown by the Norn, that power takes a serious toll, and in his state (and the fact that we don't know if Strange can control his powers) they could fck up and make things worse. Also, he doesn't seem to be all there at the moment; I think the annual will elaborate on that seeing as it takes place before he appears before Namor speaking words of power.

2) That third solution is something they clearly don't plan on sharing, and it's heavily implied that the third solution involve the death people (something they want nothing to do with and Sun God doesn't even want to think about the possibility of potential deaths). The fact that Sun God said that they were going to hope for a solution to come tells all you need to know about how many solutions they have up their sleeves.

3) Neither Reed nor Tony are in the mindset to build anything, and they've basically told us that they have no ideas on how to fix this.

Look man, these guys went to the GS desperately grasping at straws and saw a group with less solutions then them and then the beat around the bush. After seeing their other selves fail over and over again, and with themselves still having no ideas, they knew where this was going. Namor just stopped the BS.

[Mark]

The Illuminati havent destroyed a populated world yet, a fact that people keep forgetting.The GS are not more heroic. They just havent had to make the big choice yet, much like the Illuminati.Lets also consider just because the Illuminati is prepared to destroy a world, doesnt mean that they all will be willing to pull the trigger.

Which is why I'm curious but I do think they are dragging this thing out. As I said if they do it then they become murderers. I'm not sure even marvel will let them go that far.

[Ravin' Ray]

The next time Namor wants to make a point, could he please not spear someone?! This is the second time Hickman's made him do it (the first was killing the Old Atlantean monarch in Fantastic Four). Also, the Norn sure looks a lot like Doctor Fate, helm and staff and all.

[jackolover]

Why doesn't Sun God use time travel to go back in time and delay the Incursion if he's supposed to be Superman? And which one of the Justice League is the Norn supposed to be. Flash?

If this is supposed to be DC coming up with a solution to the Incursions, then The Great Society would have solved this already, with some Cosmic Being they always fall back on.

The Illuminati and the Great Society standing around talking, isn't doing anything, and just shows up the Marvel heroes as being lame in all this, or worse still, savages. Unless the GS can come up with another solution, they too are looking rather lame. But if the GS do, then Captain America was right, and the Illuminati didn't do enough research in the first place.

It remains to be seen how Captain America dealt with Tony Stark at the conclusion of the OS Avengers series, to know where Tony stands in the MU now. That he still can access a suit of armour means Tony isn't all that short of options just yet.

I have no idea what Maximus intended to achieve with awakening Corvas Glave, unless he wanted to introduce Thanos as a weapon to attack the Great Society.

[Mahes]

It remains to be seen how Captain America dealt with Tony Stark at the conclusion of the OS Avengers series, to know where Tony stands in the MU now. That he still can access a suit of armour means Tony isn't all that short of options just yet.

I have no idea what Maximus intended to achieve with awakening Corvas Glave, unless he wanted to introduce Thanos as a weapon to attack the Great Society.

Regarding Cap: Both Avengers and New Avengers are taking place at roughly the same time now. Cap is still doing the time trip while Tony is with the Illuminati during the face off against the Great Society.

Regarding Maximus: He was curious regarding his regenerative rates by sounds of it.

[Ekie]

If Thanos is gonna team with Swan, Corvus, Proxima, Terrax and Namor then I don't see how anyone stops them

[jackolover]

If Thanos is gonna team with Swan, Corvus, Proxima, Terrax and Namor then I don't see how anyone stops them

Has Superman ever beaten Darkseid in DC? If so, then Thanos won't be problem to Sun god.

[jackolover]

Regarding Cap: Both Avengers and New Avengers are taking place at roughly the same time now. Cap is still doing the time trip while Tony is with the Illuminati during the face off against the Great Society.

Isn't it already referenced in this issue that Tonys injuries are a result of Caps attack on Tony in OS Avengers, so NA must be after OS Avengers plays out?

Regarding Maximus: He was curious regarding his regenerative rates by sounds of it.

Maximus could be insane, but I tend to think he has more genius than madness.

[Mahes]

It takes place after the 1st OS issue that Avengers had. Tony activated his hand device and was sent back to the present time. From there he went to the Necropolis. Meanwhile, Cap is still in the time trip.

[jackolover]

I thought it was interesting how Namor lashed out at the Great Society, because it shows the difference between Marvel and DC in that respect. Namor represents a more brutal approach, as super heroes go, while the GS shows a more intelligent approach to a problem. I like how Hickman is comparing the two universes (Marvel and DC) philosophies and showcasing their differences. I'm not sure I like how the Marvel Universe is represented, in fact, I dislike the MU representation, as I thought the Marvel version was too primitive, being too ready to use dynamite rather than sabotage.

But I like exploring the differences between Marvel and DC philosophies, just because it smacks you in the face with the reality of the Stan Lee version of super heroes. Just reading Marvel alone sets you on a false sense of security, thinking Marvel is so goody two shoes and is just misunderstood by its common citizens. But when you see Marvel characters interact with DC characters, you get a less attractive look at Marvels properties. What Hickman was doing all along was approach this realisation about the Illuminati being these monsters, ready to do evil because it satisfies their code of conduct. This is a pretty sobering fact to be bringing to its audience.

[jphamlore]

The Great Society's Earth is finished anyway because the Incursions are now starting to occur for them too fast for them to handle even if they weren't facing the Illuminati. They'd have been dead by their own calculations if other bad guys such as an Ivory King had shown up.

Neither the Great Society nor the Illuminati of 616 are following a sustainable path. Their Earths have to die. That is almost scientific fact in Hickman's construct.

By the way, in addition to the Red Skull's with Xavier's brain plans that I think will take fruition in AXIS, 616 Earth may have taken irreparable and fatal damage from predations such as Roxanne corporation. It is possible to me that the 8 month gap may start off with the huge revelation the Earth's population is no longer even on the original 616 planet, which again would indicate a great reset to end Hickman's run with Marvel, similar to how the final issue of Grant Morrison's X-Men Here Comes Tomorrow reset the X-franchise back to the present.