Secret Wars 7 *SPOILERS!*

[jackolover]

As someone that's been a Hickman fan...this series is not very good. Very little has actually happened, less of consequence has happened and the circumstances and nature of Doom's power are far too nebulous. So he's all powerful...but he really isn't at all. I mean, he's not even REMOTELY as powerful as cosmic beings are but he's supposed to be. He can break the neck of the Phoenix and kill the wielder of that power but can't locate people in a domain he himself totally commands? Um. Okay? WTF are the limits of his power? What do they entail? What can he do or not do?

Does anyone know? No. Of course not.

Furthermore, we're expected to root for the heroes while giving no reason why what Doom is doing is particularly bad. Oh no! He saved as much as he could and is doing the best that he can! Um...okay. AND? Oh wait, Reed is mad at him so...boo Doom? Yet Dr. Strange supported him...or was Strange just waiting for an opportunity? Well then doesn't that make Strange an idiot for not having taken the power for himself to do things right? Well that might depend on the nature and scope of the power...which we have no idea about.

Combine this with the totally nonsense nature of the tie-ins and we're really seeing the incompetence at Marvel editorial. So AOA Apocalypse shows up...after dying in the tie-in? Um...okay? How? Why? Furthermore, the AOA tie-in showed things like the Savage Land...okay so is that the AOA Savage Land? Or just the Battleworld savage land (which I wasn't even aware existed) and, if so, why were they in a different (presumably) Barons' domain?

Sorry but this is all a mess and now we have an issue that can basically be summed up as "Captain Marvel gets Sinisters to betray everyone. For lulz. Thor gets the other Thors to revolt against the person they consider God. For reasons. Maximus can claim to be a prophet, offer nothing substantial, and convince a whole slew of people to march on the 'all powerful' Doom. Somehow. All-powerful Doom sits back and has Barons (some of whom should be dead) fight because he can't just wipe out the opposition...despite being all-powerful. Because shut up. Maestro attacks with a bunch of Hulks. Who is he attacking? Which side is he fighting for? Shut up. T'challa with an Infinity Gauntlet, which the Living Tribunal can easily turn off, is somehow a danger to Doom who has the power that beat the Beyonders who casually slaughtered Living Tribunals. Because that makes sense."

This is not good. Not good at all. It's a total cluster with no real drama and no real internal logic that just insists certain things are the way they are without telling us or showing us how or why those statements are valid. After all, with 2 issues left I'm sure we're going to see Thanos re-emerge after having disappeared in the story like 2 issues in. Great story-telling. And if he doesn't show back up? Oh guess he was another useless detour that was irrelevant. It's lose-lose at this point and I LOVE Thanos so you'd think I'd be super eager to see him...but I'm not. I just want this to be over. No surprise Hickman is taking a break from Marvel after this because it feels like this WAS a story that made sense...but that it got absolutely butchered into this mess.

Well, Hickmans writing this, so if it feels butchered it's all on Hickman, not Marvel. And I've read his commentaries after each issue, and Hickman is quite happy about how the story goes. He seems quite relaxed through the discussions.

I suppose this is Hickmans first real big Event, and he was in control of the narrative flow through the whole planning process. I'm not sure if Hickman could insist the story be written this way, or, a committee of editors were leaning over his shoulder saying, " You can't do that. You have to do it this way". So the end result appears to be all on Hickman. He appears to be a guy who likes to write his stories without showing. He is all tell. I have to say his exposition ability through all this has been superb, though, when it comes to discussions between characters.

For all we know, this will all become plane in the last two issues as they unfold, and it is realised some hidden factor was at work here, so all our concerns were unwarranted.

Yes. A great way to put it. Way too much "Hey wouldn't this be neat? And what about this? AND THIS? AND THIS?!?". It feels like someone trying to write Multiversity without having the strong narrative thread throughout combined with the individually constructed stories of each individual issue. If you're going to introduce an entirely new universe/world (like Battleworld) we either need to discover it via familiar strangers in a strange land (like the raft survivors) navigating it or develop it through a character that is new to the reader that are familiar with the world and, via that familiarity, we as readers become familiar with the world and attached to it by becoming attached to the new character. We've had none of that...just a bunch of bouncing around from random threads with a bunch of name and concept-drops.

It feels like someone's crazy tabletop RPG setting being explained to you...that you never get to actually play in so you have no real understanding for it or affection towards it.

I do know what you mean though, and your initial post gave good examples and showed what frustrations there were in the Domains. Doom and the Thors could swoop in at any time and rejig the whole place as many times as they like, but it was cheating. There as no real freedom in Battleworld. It was all a facade. If Doom didn't like it, he could just change it. How is that living for human beings? For all we know, the arrival of the Raftees may not have changed anything, because Doom could wipe their minds too, and go along as if nothing had happened. It's all cheating life as far as human society is concerned.

[jackolover]

He's a dictator. He let mutant dies. He let his Barons do whatever they want to their citizens. When the SHIELD breaks up he let's millions of people die and when the zombie are near his castle he snaps his finger and put everything in his right place. He has "heretics" hunted and sent to certain death. He is omnipotent but he is not interested in finding a way to recreate the multiverse but his content with ruling on a planet he made where he is considered God I think he already wasted all the goodwill he could have generated saving some pieces of the multiverse.

It would have been nice to have stuck a scene in there showing the Domains realising that Doom was manipulating them to be just as Doom wants them, and they don't like that. That would have been helpful. Then it would make sense Battleworld was under revolt. But really, nobody on Battleworld would be convinced to betray Doom, because nobody could demonstrate they had power to defy Doom. People had had 8 years of Dooms rule, and they were conditioned into knowing it wasn't worth resisting anymore.

That's because Namor made all the funnys
#fightingwords XD

Namor being the brash ruler who says and does what he wants, T'Challa being the silent strategist he always is?
Match made in heaven..too bad we only see glimpses of this throughout the run.
I want a Tchalla Namor in Battleworld series NOW

now i'm pondering
what if..they're the only 2 guys to survive all this (hinted at Na 17 or 18)
and basically the universe is them sheperding everyone to the siege courageous? :O

What I'm wondering is did Panther know Namor survived his being blown up in an Incursion? I would think Panther seeing Namor on Battleworld would be a shock, because Namor was left for dead on the exploding planet. Shouldn't Panther have commented, "Didn't we kill you a while back on that planet"?

[JKtheMac]

I suppose this is Hickmans first real big Event, and he was in control of the narrative flow through the whole planning process. I'm not sure if Hickman could insist the story be written this way, or, a committee of editors were leaning over his shoulder saying, " You can't do that. You have to do it this way". So the end result appears to be all on Hickman. He appears to be a guy who likes to write his stories without showing. He is all tell. I have to say his exposition ability through all this has been superb, though, when it comes to discussions between characters.

Non CBR interviews with Hickman suggest he has a pretty good working relationship with Brevoort. He considers Marvel editorial to be pretty laid back and he seems happy that they have to occasionally change things around or direct the flow of the story.

As to the show/tell thing I think this is a confused issue with comics in general because so much of the script will be the showing side of the equation. Plus dialogue in comics is more literary than other visual media so the exposition often comes in words. However, from a narratological perspective (sorry that word is cumbersome but it is precise to my meaning) very often exposition is matched with visuals so it is not always as 'tell like' as it seems.

Suffice to say Hickman employs a very sophisticated approach to exposition and often just skips it entirely expecting the reader to keep up. He gets an awful lot done in these pages by skipping explanation.

[JKtheMac]

It would have been nice to have stuck a scene in there showing the Domains realising that Doom was manipulating them to be just as Doom wants them, and they don't like that. That would have been helpful. Then it would make sense Battleworld was under revolt. But really, nobody on Battleworld would be convinced to betray Doom, because nobody could demonstrate they had power to defy Doom. People had had 8 years of Dooms rule, and they were conditioned into knowing it wasn't worth resisting anymore.

I think Secret Wars is using a gnostic structure. It is the Knowledge that Doom is not god and that he is not necessarily as omnipotent as he appears that is causing his demise. Many of the tie-ins address these issues thematically, and Thors #4 addresses it on the nose.

The arrival of the two rafts is the catalyst that makes the rebellion happen, as the people carried in them know the gnostic truth. Doom is a demiurge.

The Barons are closer to the truth and many of the barons in the tie-ins are looking upwards with envy and dark thoughts even if they are not the exact versions depicted here.

[jackolover]

I have to say, I couldn't find any correlation between the main SW series and the tie-ins. If people were seeing elaborations in the tie-ins telling why there have been insurrections in the Domains, I didn't see it. I saw completely happy and insulated Domains, and nobody was going after Doom. Somebody like General Ross Thing said he was coming after Doom, but his plan came the cropper when Doom turned Maestro into the guardian of the Destroyer Armor, and Ross went home, for all I knew. She-Hulk was a little bemused, Carol Corps Baron was subversively anti-Doom, but not openly. The Inhumans felt the full wrath of Doom and had their backsides spanked, so they were good boys and girls again. I needed to have things followed up in the tie-ins, but Marvel let slip any relevance, for short, irrelevant minis. Maybe the Thors ending will have some relevance, but really that was just a detective story about why one Thor killed Beta Ray Bill wasn't it?

[jeanvaljean]

I have to say, I couldn't find any correlation between the main SW series and the tie-ins. If people were seeing elaborations in the tie-ins telling why there have been insurrections in the Domains, I didn't see it. I saw completely happy and insulated Domains, and nobody was going after Doom. Somebody like General Ross Thing said he was coming after Doom, but his plan came the cropper when Doom turned Maestro into the guardian of the Destroyer Armor, and Ross went home, for all I knew. She-Hulk was a little bemused, Carol Corps Baron was subversively anti-Doom, but not openly. The Inhumans felt the full wrath of Doom and had their backsides spanked, so they were good boys and girls again. I needed to have things followed up in the tie-ins, but Marvel let slip any relevance, for short, irrelevant minis. Maybe the Thors ending will have some relevance, but really that was just a detective story about why one Thor killed Beta Ray Bill wasn't it?

And the reason for the killings brings the relevance. Worth reading.

[jackolover]

I think Secret Wars is using a gnostic structure. It is the Knowledge that Doom is not god and that he is not necessarily as omnipotent as he appears that is causing his demise. Many of the tie-ins address these issues thematically, and Thors #4 addresses it on the nose.

The arrival of the two rafts is the catalyst that makes the rebellion happen, as the people carried in them know the gnostic truth. Doom is a demiurge.

The Barons are closer to the truth and many of the barons in the tie-ins are looking upwards with envy and dark thoughts even if they are not the exact versions depicted here.

That would be nice. If we saw the Raftees going from Domain to Domain showing evidence the Raftees are from another planet, it would shatter the fiction Battleworld always existed alone, but did this happen? I don't think it did. This is what should have been the tie-ins.

[jackolover]

And the reason for the killings brings the relevance. Worth reading.

I'm going in tomorrow to pick up Thors #4 and Secret Wars #7.

[JKtheMac]

I know a lot of people have expressed agreement with Yagamifire but I couldn’t disagree more. I guess that isn't a surprise for anyone who has read my comments on Hickman in the past.

As someone that's been a Hickman fan...this series is not very good. Very little has actually happened, less of consequence has happened and the circumstances and nature of Doom's power are far too nebulous. So he's all powerful...but he really isn't at all. I mean, he's not even REMOTELY as powerful as cosmic beings are but he's supposed to be. He can break the neck of the Phoenix and kill the wielder of that power but can't locate people in a domain he himself totally commands? Um. Okay? WTF are the limits of his power? What do they entail? What can he do or not do?

Does anyone know? No. Of course not.

Well I think it has been very clearly shown that he is omnipotent but he does not have omniscience. Doom is still Doom, and you don’t get to be an all knowing god this way.

Furthermore, we're expected to root for the heroes while giving no reason why what Doom is doing is particularly bad…

Surely Doom having an identifiable motive is exactly what we want from a good comic. Doom shouldn’t be a cartoon moustache twirling villain, he should be Shakespearian. He should believe he is doing the right thing and we should be able to see his perspective without fully agreeing with it.

For me this is a strength of the book not a flaw.

Combine this with the totally nonsense nature of the tie-ins…

This is the biggest strength of the event. The tie-ins can be whatever the creators like and the ones you need to keep an eye on are clearly labelled Battleworld. This is definitely my favourite event in marvel history and that is mostly due to the gonzo-Marvel tie-ins.

Sorry but this is all a mess…

I am not going to undermine your lack of enjoyment, that is your subjective experience and as valid as any of us. All I can say is I don’t think it is a mess and I don’t agree the merit of this work can be dismissed so easily. This kind of storytelling is exactly what I appreciate in comics but sure not everyone will agree.

[JKtheMac]

That would be nice. If we saw the Raftees going from Domain to Domain showing evidence the Raftees are from another planet, it would shatter the fiction Battleworld always existed alone, but did this happen? I don't think it did. This is what should have been the tie-ins.

I don't think this is necessary, but we do get examples. The most obvious is Thanos and Ben. The clear implictaion is Doom keeps resetting things anyway, so in the past the wall has fallen and I wouldn't be surprised if there have been revolts before.

Doom has totally warped everyone's mind in a world larger by far than Earth. He is pretty powerful.

But look down the list of tie-ins and you will find themes. In Warzone titles alone the themes are apparent in:

ASM Renew Your Vows (Baron plotting against Doom)
Captain marvel and the Carol Corps (They discover some of the truth and push onwards)
Future Imperfect (Baron plotting against Doom)
Guardians of Knowhere (Raftee intervention)
The Korvak Saga (which includes a gnostic ending and a specific note that doom is not omniscient)
M.O.D.O.K. Assassin (Plot behind Doom's back)
Old Man Logan (Truth slowly revealed to Wolverine)

[JKtheMac]

Battleworld titles:

Ghost Riders (Rebellion in the face of Doom’s oppression / Rollerball pastiche)
Runaways (Doom's regime revealed to be evil)
Siege (Resets explained and Raftee steers events at the end)
Starlord & Kitty Pride (softly themed as love = knowledge / raftee is protagonist)
Thors (All about Doom’s lie and another raftee intervention)
Ultimate End (A Gnostic story that addresses resets and has a raftee turning up in the next issue)
Inhumans (spoilers:

shows a reset in action

end of spoilers)

[T'Challa Bruce Von Doom]

Well I think it has been very clearly shown that he is omnipotent but he does not have omniscience. Doom is still Doom, and you don’t get to be an all knowing god this way.

When one looks at mythological pantheons, godhood and omnipotence didn't necessarily mean omniscient as well. It was the Judeo-Christian conception of God that made omnipotence and omniscience a package deal, and now people seem to automatically presume the two always go together when they're two separate properties.

[JKtheMac]

When one looks at mythological pantheons, godhood and omnipotence didn't necessarily mean omniscient as well. It was the Judeo-Christian conception of God that made omnipotence and omniscience a package deal, and now people seem to automatically presume the two always go together when they're two separate properties.

Well exactly, I considered running down the list of god powers but resisted. Too busy running down the list of books.

[DrTraveler]

I hear you, and I agree. This argument over unexplained happenings also took place in a previous thread. The Apologist crowd did and will do their best to reason out why you and I don't actually need to see the blanks filled in, or even suggest that it may have been a good idea.

It has always been this way with Crossovers. I'm not sure why folks are complaining. It's like complaining my car uses gas.

If you close up the story inside the main book too much, then there's no point to even having the tie ins. They're irrelevant. If you want tie in books, you have to leave some things to be explained elsewhere. I'm just reading Secret Wars. Period. No other tie ins and I'm feeling like I've got the parts of the story down that I need to know. If I want to know how Jane Foster won over the Thors, or want to know more about Thing and Thanos, then I know there's a book out there I can pick up. All told this book is doing a lot better at being an all-inclusive story than a lot of Marvel crossovers have done in the last decade.

If you want a real disaster of a book look at Secret Invasion. If you didn't read almost all of the crossover books you had almost zero chance of understanding anything. If you did read the crossovers, I'm mostly convinced you could skip the main book.

[DrTraveler]

I've mentioned before: After reading Hickman's FF run (without previously being a Doom fan before that), I came to realize how amicable a relationship Doom actually had with the Richards'. Did something happen between the FF run and SW's to put them at serious odds again? I mean I know Doom is supposed to be a villain, but in Hickman's run he came off as anything but (think of all the help he gave defeating the alternate RR's, he nearly gave his life). Why wouldn't Reed now give him the benefit of the doubt and try to work WITH him? I would say that maybe Reed is just crazy with the idea of "his family" now being Dooms family, but even upon first meeting, before Reed knew of that dynamic, he was already hissing at Doom..

Also, for those more in the know: What is the overall impression of Doom's previous ruling of Latveria? It seems to me that he was a just ruler that cared for his people, or is that merely a facade? If he WAS indeed a just ruler, wouldnt that give them even more reason to give him the benefit of the doubt for ruling Battleworld?

Reed clearly doesn't trust Doom for the entirety of the F4 run. There's no make up there. He considers wiping Doom's brain when he gets the chance. He has to be talked into even saving Doom by his Dad. Reed and Doom "tolerate" each other over Val. That's about it.

There's a scene in New Avengers where Reed and Stephen Strange have dinner with Doom to convince him not to look any deeper into the incursions. Reed practically threatens Doom outright. It ain't pretty.

As for Doom: I believe he cares about his people. You can debate if he does right by them or even if he is a good ruler. History is full of leaders that truly love their people but are absolutely horrible individuals.