My problem with DC

[megaharrison]

DC throwing characterization and classic heroes to the wayside in the name of political correctness (most notably, Wally West) is their biggest problem right now

[Old Man Ollie 1962]

Not easy. We talk. We hope. May not even work. Better that than automatically going to the lowest denominator of what some of us are.

You're absolutely right. We talk. We listen. Never give up hope.

[Old Man Ollie 1962]

DC throwing characterization and classic heroes to the wayside in the name of political correctness (most notably, Wally West) is their biggest problem right now

I miss the old Wally too. And I suspect everybody at CBR knows how I feel about the new so-called Green Arrow. I purpose a DC Pre-New 52 line of books that restores the classic superheroes.

[DrNewGod]

I miss the old Wally too. And I suspect everybody at CBR knows how I feel about the new so-called Green Arrow. I purpose a DC Pre-New 52 line of books that restores the classic superheroes.

I don't know if they could support those numbers of books, but I've sometimes thought that both of the Big 2 should run parallel lines, one intended to appeal to new and younger readers, and one intended for longer tenure readers, that changes the characters and continuity over time. As the time passes, eventually reboot the "older" line, to capture the new and younger readers, and let the formerly "new" line began to progress and age. Repeat.

[Lee Stone]

I miss the old Wally too. And I suspect everybody at CBR knows how I feel about the new so-called Green Arrow. I purpose a DC Pre-New 52 line of books that restores the classic superheroes.

The Pre52 stuff probably wouldn't sell so great now. Too much time has passed.
If we assume that they lost about half their old audience with the reboot, and gained about twice as many new readers...
Then that would mean that only about a third of their current audience would even bother reading it.

The only Pre52 fans that would even know the books existed would already be reading DC's comics.
Lapsed readers who left the building wouldn't know about it since they don't advertise outside the building.

[DetectiveStrange]

Wally West has the spotlight on him for many years. He had his chance. Isn't it Barry Allen's time now? I think so. And it's too early to talk about legacy. Legacy develops over time.

Barry Allen's time? I thought that was from '56 to '86? That argument would hold a lot more water if Bart Allen was the New 52 Flash.


As for whether or not there should be a return to the post-crisis universe - either way, it's not happening. But that doesn't mean we'll never get a Wally closer to post-crisis Wally. I can think of ways that it can be done - I'm sure many writers at DC can as well. It will take some editorial will to see it through - that'll be the difficult part.

[Crazy Diamond]

Barry Allen's time? I thought that was from '56 to '86? That argument would hold a lot more water if Bart Allen was the New 52 Flash.


As for whether or not there should be a return to the post-crisis universe - either way, it's not happening. But that doesn't mean we'll never get a Wally closer to post-crisis Wally. I can think of ways that it can be done - I'm sure many writers at DC can as well. It will take some editorial will to see it through - that'll be the difficult part.

Honestly, Didio and them messed up the Post-Crisis universe so bad with their stannery that I would rather they not go back to it. Wally was getting screwed over way before the New 52. They routinely play favorites right up to today and then try to act like they don't. They claim a commitment to diversity, then shove the majority of POC characters (for one example) to the background or to limbo and that's when they're not trying to kill them off. I mean, Flash had XS who was an original character and yet she basically got thrown the curb. She would have been a perfect fit for the New 52 but then again considering the BS her cousin Bart went through maybe it's for the best they don't bring her back. Why can't Power Company get another chance? Why does Blue Beetle, Static, Firestorm, Mr. Terrific, Vixen, Fire, etc. get stuck with shoddy writing? Why did John Stewart end up on the chopping block in the first place (still think they're going to kill him off, just looking for a writer willing to do it)? Why get Milestone characters and then do fck all with them? Why be afraid of Batwoman marrying Maggie Sawyer, then put her in a storyline where she gets repeatedly raped by a vampire? It's like just a huge waterfall of garbage and they say this while claming "Oh, we're more progressive now." It's pathetic.

[Tayswift]

Honestly, Didio and them messed up the Post-Crisis universe so bad with their stannery that I would rather they not go back to it. Wally was getting screwed over way before the New 52. They routinely play favorites right up to today and then try to act like they don't. They claim a commitment to diversity, then shove the majority of POC characters (for one example) to the background or to limbo and that's when they're not trying to kill them off. I mean, Flash had XS who was an original character and yet she basically got thrown the curb. She would have been a perfect fit for the New 52 but then again considering the BS her cousin Bart went through maybe it's for the best they don't bring her back. Why can't Power Company get another chance? Why does Blue Beetle, Static, Firestorm, Mr. Terrific, Vixen, Fire, etc. get stuck with shoddy writing? Why did John Stewart end up on the chopping block in the first place (still think they're going to kill him off, just looking for a writer willing to do it)? Why get Milestone characters and then do fck all with them? Why be afraid of Batwoman marrying Maggie Sawyer, then put her in a storyline where she gets repeatedly raped by a vampire? It's like just a huge waterfall of garbage and they say this while claming "Oh, we're more progressive now." It's pathetic.

it's really pathetic. dc progressiveness is very weird, advance on some and regress on another.

I think before anything else, Didio, lee and Harras have to get out. Nobody will ever fix DC with those guys on power.
DC timeline got screwed and it will be a hard fix for future tptb

[Prisoner 6655321]

To be clear, and I really shouldn't have to make my self clear here here but I understand why I do, I don't believe the following to necessarily be entirely factual (nor do I see it as untruth). The reality is, there are tons of stuff behind the scenes at DC which I'm not privy to. The following is based on assumptions formed by my relatively informed outsider opinion. So while a lot of this may not be the case, if it is not, there are still reasons why I (or anyone) else may feel this way and if it is untrue there still stands the point of “why would it seem this way to a reader”.

This past weekend I watched a documentary about a Superman movie that was never made. There was a line in it that struck me as the crux of DC's prevailing (imo) problem. The line was (paraphrase here) “Don't worry about the comic fans, they'll be there anyway” I think this is kinda the heart of the DC problem.

When watching the Flash TV show I'm not bothered by most differences between the show and the comics. Never once did I think “omg, Iris is a person of color, how can Barry marry her now?” or even “oh no, does this mean Wally is gonna be…. Black?!?!” but I have thought several times “Iris not having a nephew or even a sibling to produce a potential one greatly limits the potential of Wally showing up as Kid Flash which is fine but if that's the case why is there a Linda Park and why does Linda seem to be just a couple years older than Barry and Iris”. This seems trivial (and kinda is) but while it doesn't bother me sp much I think it highlights a point, why do it? Why have a Linda if it's not Linda? Because they think (in a way) that little name drop is what matters most to us.

I think on some level (probably way above the bullpens) DC (or Time-Warner) has a total misunderstanding of comicbook readership. (Maybe not total, I'm sure some handful of readers fall into this category and I'm certainly not implying the rest of us are all looking for the same thing.) They tend to view their characters as icons or logos rather than (figuratively) organic beings and they tend to view readership more along the lines of brand loyalty rather than as enthusiasts of a story / genre / medium. When someone says “I'm a fan of Wally West” what they generally mean is “I've enjoyed the characteristics, and developing story of Wally West” but what someone in the DC / TW chain interprets this as is “All you gotta do is say the name Wally West and you're gonna make their fanboy panties drop”. This is why, for them totally transforming a character is of no more consequence than updating a corporate logo. They believe the readers don't buy comics with any concern for the content so much as a symbol which they identify with or something like that.

Whereas it seems to me that Disney uses Marvel (which is not without issues of its own, no pun intended, but those issues are, in my reckoning, not very similar to those had by DC) as a sort of content machine to draw from, Warner views DC mostly in terms of a marketing and licensing tool. The difference is subtle but profound. For Marvel the comic books are the high end product for sincere enthusiasts, for DC the comicbooks are anachronisms sold to rubes in order to keep their licenses fresh. For Marvel, Disney seems to recognize that the comics and their content are, for lack of a better phraseology, the top of the Superhero food chain and focus their marketing and derivatives on replicating successes from those books (with tweaks, obviously) in mediums with more mass appeal (more people watch the movies than read the books). Warner seems to view the comics as not much more than a marketing device for licenses and derivatives rather than anything of much value for what they are.

[Myskin]

To be clear, and I really shouldn't have to make my self clear here here but I understand why I do, I don't believe the following to necessarily be entirely factual (nor do I see it as untruth). The reality is, there are tons of stuff behind the scenes at DC which I'm not privy to. The following is based on assumptions formed by my relatively informed outsider opinion. So while a lot of this may not be the case, if it is not, there are still reasons why I (or anyone) else may feel this way and if it is untrue there still stands the point of “why would it seem this way to a reader”.

This past weekend I watched a documentary about a Superman movie that was never made. There was a line in it that struck me as the crux of DC's prevailing (imo) problem. The line was (paraphrase here) “Don't worry about the comic fans, they'll be there anyway” I think this is kinda the heart of the DC problem.

When watching the Flash TV show I'm not bothered by most differences between the show and the comics. Never once did I think “omg, Iris is a person of color, how can Barry marry her now?” or even “oh no, does this mean Wally is gonna be…. Black?!?!” but I have thought several times “Iris not having a nephew or even a sibling to produce a potential one greatly limits the potential of Wally showing up as Kid Flash which is fine but if that's the case why is there a Linda Park and why does Linda seem to be just a couple years older than Barry and Iris”. This seems trivial (and kinda is) but while it doesn't bother me sp much I think it highlights a point, why do it? Why have a Linda if it's not Linda? Because they think (in a way) that little name drop is what matters most to us.

I think on some level (probably way above the bullpens) DC (or Time-Warner) has a total misunderstanding of comicbook readership. (Maybe not total, I'm sure some handful of readers fall into this category and I'm certainly not implying the rest of us are all looking for the same thing.) They tend to view their characters as icons or logos rather than (figuratively) organic beings and they tend to view readership more along the lines of brand loyalty rather than as enthusiasts of a story / genre / medium. When someone says “I'm a fan of Wally West” what they generally mean is “I've enjoyed the characteristics, and developing story of Wally West” but what someone in the DC / TW chain interprets this as is “All you gotta do is say the name Wally West and you're gonna make their fanboy panties drop”. This is why, for them totally transforming a character is of no more consequence than updating a corporate logo. They believe the readers don't buy comics with any concern for the content so much as a symbol which they identify with or something like that.

Whereas it seems to me that Disney uses Marvel (which is not without issues of its own, no pun intended, but those issues are, in my reckoning, not very similar to those had by DC) as a sort of content machine to draw from, Warner views DC mostly in terms of a marketing and licensing tool. The difference is subtle but profound. For Marvel the comic books are the high end product for sincere enthusiasts, for DC the comicbooks are anachronisms sold to rubes in order to keep their licenses fresh. For Marvel, Disney seems to recognize that the comics and their content are, for lack of a better phraseology, the top of the Superhero food chain and focus their marketing and derivatives on replicating successes from those books (with tweaks, obviously) in mediums with more mass appeal (more people watch the movies than read the books). Warner seems to view the comics as not much more than a marketing device for licenses and derivatives rather than anything of much value for what they are.

IMHO, you're a bit exaggerating the differences between Marvel and DC. I think that as far as the opinion of the publishers about comic books is concerned, Marvel simply has a better PR than DC- just look at the way Marvel announced their future movies. The place of work seems a bit saner than DC, but I think that, generally speaking, they have mostly the same opinion about comics.

Anyway, sure, DC has a certain opinion about their readership, but I also think that readership is doing their best - and it has been doing so for decades - to prove them right. But not because of mere details about the differences between a TV show and a comic book. DC (as well as Marvel) executives know that they can always count on readers which will keep them afloat no matter what. I mean, when I think about DC comic books which I have read in the latest, I don't know, 2 decades, I realize that 5-6 of them were REALLY worth noticing (I am including DC New Frontier, SOLO, All Star Superman, etc.). The publishers never made a concrete, sincere effort to change themselves because they had no reason to do so. And when I talk about "change themselves", I mean that they never really tried to create good, sophisticated, interesting comic books on a regular basis, and when they did so, they rarely promoted them. I mean Vertigo-like quality level, or modern Image quality-level. Why should they do so, when they can propose subpar, trashy stuff like Convergence and it is rather well-received sales wise nonetheless? DC hasn't been doing real efforts to propose good comic books, and readers haven't been doing real efforts to read them (except for milestones like All-Star Superman).

[Ascended]

IMHO, you're a bit exaggerating the differences between Marvel and DC. I think that as far as the opinion of the publishers about comic books is concerned, Marvel simply has a better PR than DC- just look at the way Marvel announced their future movies. The place of work seems a bit saner than DC, but I think that, generally speaking, they have mostly the same opinion about comics.

Anyway, sure, DC has a certain opinion about their readership, but I also think that readership is doing their best - and it has been doing so for decades - to prove them right. But not because of mere details about the differences between a TV show and a comic book. DC (as well as Marvel) executives know that they can always count on readers which will keep them afloat no matter what. I mean, when I think about DC comic books which I have read in the latest, I don't know, 2 decades, I realize that 5-6 of them were REALLY worth noticing (I am including DC New Frontier, SOLO, All Star Superman, etc.). The publishers never made a concrete, sincere effort to change themselves because they had no reason to do so. And when I talk about "change themselves", I mean that they never really tried to create good, sophisticated, interesting comic books on a regular basis, and when they did so, they rarely promoted them. I mean Vertigo-like quality level, or modern Image quality-level. Why should they do so, when they can propose subpar, trashy stuff like Convergence and it is rather well-received sales wise nonetheless? DC hasn't been doing real efforts to propose good comic books, and readers haven't been doing real efforts to read them (except for milestones like All-Star Superman).

I was reading this post without looking at who wrote it and thinking to myself "this guy has some pretty damned good arguments and I agree with just about everything he's saying". Then I looked at the poster and it was "of course. Myskin. No wonder I agree!"

I think Prisoner is, at least to a degree, likely correct in many of his theories too. I dont seem much difference between Marvel and DC's product beyond Marvel's infinitely superior PR. But otherwise, I think he might be onto something.

[C_Miller]

Yeah, Prisoner. You're definitely overreacting a bit. Bringing up the Flash probably isn't the hill you want to die on. I'll give you Arrow, but Flash has been as true as you can get to the comics without doing straight adaptions. The details are changed and rearranged, but the spirit is more or less intact (which frankly for me, is all I really care about). To say that Linda is simply a name drop is to say her sole purpose for being a character is to be Wally's girlfriend, which is an uncomfortable ascertain to make. In the comics she is a spunky Asian American reporter with a love of sports who has a connection to The Flash. Sure, she ends up dating the incorrect Flash, but the heart of the character is there.

And probably more so than any non-animated comic book production in recent years The Flash has probably been the most willing to tow the party line when it comics to the comics. Captain Cold has the parka, they feature a giant telepathic super intelligent gorilla, they openly discuss "Earth 2" and in the last episode they brought in Gorilla City. I'm not entirely sure I'd want a show that's closer to the comics. And there's nothing wrong with straying a little. Just because the show puts a new twist on things doesn't mean my comics don't exist anymore.

[Frontier]

And for all we know, Linda is eventually going to date Wally now that he's showing up .

[Myskin]

I was reading this post without looking at who wrote it and thinking to myself "this guy has some pretty damned good arguments and I agree with just about everything he's saying". Then I looked at the poster and it was "of course. Myskin. No wonder I agree!"

Ha! ;-)

Anyway, now that I think about it, the principle DC is building their comics upon resembles the one behind Freemium games. Has anyone ever seen the South Park episode where the strategy behind these videogames is explained? The principle is the same, basically. 22-page floppy books never, or very rarely, give you a real sense of satisfaction, but readers - who are not without responsibility as far as the decline of US superhero comics is concerned, quite the contrary - keep on buying them. For a variety of reasons: because DC just announced the next event, or the main character has a "Bat" in its name, or they have been buying these comics for decades and they are still buying them because they are accustomed to do so.

The problem is, by doing so they open the doors to all of the problems that have been destroying superhero comics for decades. Editorially mandated storylines, plot lines completely distorted by the editors, stories which simply don't make sense, fill-ins (I mean, some of the DCYou series had a different artist on the SECOND issue! How can this be possible?) and artists who, frankly speaking, are only vaguely competent but very well-received by the fandom nonetheless.

Do you want better superhero comic books? Stop buying them. Don't buy Dark Knight III: it may even have a decent story, but the principle behind the creation of a story which didn't need a sequel in the first place, and it is sold with TONS of variant covers is simply wrong.

[Prisoner 6655321]

IMHO, you're a bit exaggerating the differences between Marvel and DC. I think that as far as the opinion of the publishers about comic books is concerned, Marvel simply has a better PR than DC- just look at the way Marvel announced their future movies. The place of work seems a bit saner than DC, but I think that, generally speaking, they have mostly the same opinion about comics.

Fair enough on a couple levels. I wasn't using the Flash as an example because I think it's terrible. I mean, I watch it every week and it's probably the strongest of the shows. Also I have a long list of complaints about Marvel but I figured I'd save myself some time since this is a DC thread. Also, I agree with quality (I think) more or less. Imo, Marvel makes more “good” books on a consistent basis but DC makes the best books when they're at their best.

Ultimately, I think Marvel's "issue" is slightly different, in some ways it's more palatable to me at this time but it's also fairly ehh in general… though I think the issue is something other than PR. What Marvel does well in my opinion is publish some exceptionally solid books (and to be fair, some exceptionally lackluster ones) that all blend together fairly well and continually lead in to a constant stream of events which vary in quality and eventually cancel each other out. The books themselves cost more and the physical qualities of those books tend to be not very great (notable is covers / cover ink which seems more smudge-able than most other books on the market). Interconnectivity between titles is something Marvel seems to understand but exploit way more than is tasteful in my book.

It seems to me that DC / TW bets on idolatry while Disney / Marvel focuses on a formula for a consistent stream of massive cross overs and events. While Marvel seems to understand the why's of comic readership a bit more but it's not because they necessarily “respect” the readership and that recognition is in service to a process that reduces those reasons to variables in an equation. With the high cost and circular nature of events Marvel is akin to keeping gas in a really awesome looking monster truck (I don't have any kinda thing for monster trucks… they're just big machines that use a lot of gas and can look kinda cool sometimes) that only does doughnuts.

I think the potential for really amazing DC books is still there, in fact in many ways, more than ever. Not much needs to be done except to make them, imo. Dial H was a great book unto its self but also showed that books with Vertigo (and Wildstorm for that matter) sensibilities can be told well, inside of the current universe.