My problem with DC

[sunofdarkchild]

DC editorial has a severe lack of imagination and is so focused on making the characters marketable above all else that they neglect what makes the characters good in the first place, bringing things full circle to where the characters are unmarketable. What are writers supposed to do when editors like Didio mandate that certain characters not be used in alternate continuities like Smallville or decide that characters have to be scrapped because he doesn't like a blurb in a roller coaster que? Didio doesn't do stories. He does marketing campaigns disguised as stories that are crap and leaves DC in the position of having to run marketing campaigns for marketing campaigns. And then we wonder why DC has such a hard time marketing its characters.

And Harras, who caused Marvel to go bankrupt through his negligence and mismanagement, is the man in charge? Unless DC planted him at Marvel to destroy them there is no reason to expect him to be anything other than a disaster.

The first step in fixing DC is firing Didio, Harras, and their ilk and replacing them with editors who actually care about telling good stories.

[Vinsanity]

DC editorial has a severe lack of imagination and is so focused on making the characters marketable above all else that they neglect what makes the characters good in the first place, bringing things full circle to where the characters are unmarketable. What are writers supposed to do when editors like Didio mandate that certain characters not be used in alternate continuities like Smallville or decide that characters have to be scrapped because he doesn't like a blurb in a roller coaster que? Didio doesn't do stories. He does marketing campaigns disguised as stories that are crap and leaves DC in the position of having to run marketing campaigns for marketing campaigns. And then we wonder why DC has such a hard time marketing its characters..

Ah huh....yeah I think the characters are marketable but okay then.

[Tayswift]

DC editorial has a severe lack of imagination and is so focused on making the characters marketable above all else that they neglect what makes the characters good in the first place, bringing things full circle to where the characters are unmarketable. What are writers supposed to do when editors like Didio mandate that certain characters not be used in alternate continuities like Smallville or decide that characters have to be scrapped because he doesn't like a blurb in a roller coaster que? Didio doesn't do stories. He does marketing campaigns disguised as stories that are crap and leaves DC in the position of having to run marketing campaigns for marketing campaigns. And then we wonder why DC has such a hard time marketing its characters.

And Harras, who caused Marvel to go bankrupt through his negligence and mismanagement, is the man in charge? Unless DC planted him at Marvel to destroy them there is no reason to expect him to be anything other than a disaster.

The first step in fixing DC is firing Didio, Harras, and their ilk and replacing them with editors who actually care about telling good stories.

Didio and lee love stunts, this is a big problem because put good storytelling in last place of importance.

Quesada mocked Harras, because Harras wanted Mackie to write ultimate spider-man. Quesada bet on Bendis and it went all right.
Harras still give job to Lobdell

[gbryantlucas]

Didio and lee love stunts, this is a big problem because put good storytelling in last place of importance.

Quesada mocked Harras, because Harras wanted Mackie to write ultimate spider-man. Quesada bet on Bendis and it went all right.
Harras still give job to Lobdell

BAHAHAHA! That's amazing. I never knew that! This goes to show that the Comics industry - specifically the big two - is simply a good ole boys club. It baffles me that Harras got a job at DC after destroying Marvel, and it baffles me even more that DC somehow continues to let Lobdell write for them. The only title that Lobdell has written since the New 52 which didn't COMPLETELY blow was Red Hood and the Outlaws... and even then you have to look past his awful take on Starfire. I know I said it earlier, but I feel like it needs to be said OVER AND OVER: there needs to be a major culling at DC. Didio, Harras, Berganza, Lobdell... these guys need to go.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Indeed. I think that's part of the problem. People talk a lot about "diversity", but they don't put their money where their mouth is.

For example:



Batwoman was cancelled due to poor sales.

Apollo never had an ongoing, but the team book he was in, Stormwatch, was cancelled for poor sales.

In October, Midnighter sold 13,234 copies. Way below the usual cancelation range.

Doctor Fate was at 14,559 copies, almost as bad as Midnighter, and still falling a lot.

Cyborg? Third issue is at 27,550 and falling.

Let's take a look at the DC books in the top 65:

11. Batman
20. Justice League
21. Batman and Robin Eternal
35. Justice League of America
36. Harley Quinn
37. Batman and Robin Eternal
39. Batman and Robin Eternal
43. Batman and Robin Eternal
44. Detective Comics
49. Superman
55. Green Lantern
58. Justice League: Darkseid War: Batman
59. Batman/Superman
61. Action Comics
62. Robin: Son of Batman
63. Flash
64. Superman: Lois and Clark

Almost all of those are about straight white men. Justice League is also mostly straight white men.

And people are trying to talk about which company has the most female villains? Do you people honestly think that would make those books sell better?

As far as DC is concerned, the "diversity" comics are failing pretty hard. The "straight white men" books are selling the "least bad" among all their books.

Now, there are many possible reasons for this:

1. The "give me diversity" crowd would be just a vocal minority that's far from being big enough to matter, sales-wise.
   
2. Most of the DC's classic lineup is made by straight white men, so those are the books that sell the most because they're the better known characters.
   
3. DC sucks at writing diversity books.
   
4. People know the difference between telling a story about an interesting character who happens to not be a straight white men and telling a story about a character who's the token minority character of the company.

Probably a combination of all those. I'm hoping it's mostly number 4, though, but who knows.

The thing is, it's not about adding more diverse characters for tokenism. It's not about adding more female villains for the sake of having more female villains. It's not about hiring more diverse authors because of tokenism. It's about telling good stories - those stories should be about all kinds of people, but they should first and foremost be good stories. That's what DC has been failing to do lately.

It seems that you're blaming the company for something that is really the fault of the fanbase. Are you forgetting the campaigning push that DC rolled out for the DCYou? The TV spots, the full-page adds in pretty much all of their books. Even now, there are still articles in the back of every DC comic featuring an interview from the creative team behind one of their other titles. Also, even back at the start of the New 52, DC had a very diverse line up (Animal Man, Swamp Thing, Men of War, etc.) and, again marketed a lot of those titles through TV-spots, etc.

Is it really the fault of the company that after all of that, the fans STILL want the same old, same old? You know as well as I do that comic fans are creatures of habit. They settle in their ways and rarely, if ever, care to venture outside of them. How is DC supposed to break them of that basic characteristic?

Also, you're forgetting that a lot of the DCYou books actually are really good. Midnighter, despite poor sales, has been critically acclaimed several times over. Ditto for Martian Manhunter, Sinestro, Black Canary, etc. (Justice League and Batman are also highly praised for their quality, but that's an aside). So, if you're blaming poor quality for their sales numbers, that doesn't really track because, like I said, these books do have some really good creative talent behind them. The problem instead lies with comic fans, who complain and moan about a lack of diversity and then ONLY read Batman, Spider-Man, and the usual fare even when given options.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Uh, all of those names ring a bell, I'm not new to the fandom at all. I wasn't going to sit here and name every single female villain that tangles with Superman. So...

Its not that you didn't list them, its that you tried to imply definitively that they didn't exist.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

1.The New 52 got me back into comics. I was so happy that there were titles like Men At War, Voodoo, Katana & Frankenstein. DC went back to playing it safe.

Launching titles for Midnighter, Starfire, Black Canary, Martian Manhunter, Prez, etc. if playing it safe?????

I am glad that DC isn't event-crazy like the other guys. I don't even remember the last event lol.

I actually kind of wish DC would do more events, except DON'T put Lobdell on them. Like ever. Seriously, never ever ever ever ever ever put Lobdell in charge of scripting something that you guys want to be good.

Anyway, events, when done right, can be a good way to reinvigorate the company and revive excitement in their line up. Maybe just chill it on the tie ins.

[Tayswift]

Amen! I have been thinking many of the same thoughts lately. I noticed that your complaints are directed towards the Superman, Wonder Woman, and Teen Titans franchise - all of which are Eddie Berganza. From what I understand, this guy is a part of the old guard. There have been rumours of him being a bad drunk and getting handsy with some of the female staff. Needless to say - the dude's not a feminist. I will also note that Mark Doyle, the group editor for the Bat-Line, is largely responsible for the more creative and critically successful material coming out of DC at the moment - Batgirl, Gotham Academy, We Are Robin etc. Each of these books are marketed to both women and youth. DC knows how to create books for teens - they have some really talented people creating, drawing, and writing books. However, DC also is burdened with so many dinosaurs like Berganza, Lobdell, and Harrs. I've noticed that these creators are not female friendly and they are SO out of touch with youth culture. There needs to be a culling at DC - out with the old, in with the new. Superman needs a new group editor so bad, Lobdell should never touch another DC book ever again, and Harrs just needs to be fired.

I am a fervent DC fan... I love their characters, their universe, and their talent. The DC You initiative looked like it had potential, but alas - it has fallen on its ass. The Superman line (for the most part) is boring and convoluted. Wonder Woman is not herself. And Teen Titans is just awful - especially since Lobdell is now co-writing the thing. I don't care what the publishing initiative looks like: The New 52, The DC You, whatever. You can't expect an uptick in quality until you fix the real problem. Like I said - out with the old and in with the new.

Frankly, DC needs to do something quick. Marvel is killing them in sales. DC needs to find their Star Wars... WB has access to Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Supernatural, Fringe, and the bloody Matrix! You'd think they'd be able to cut a deal and get a franchise that will produce some hype.

And don't get me started on their lack of synergy with their TV properties! The TV shows are hosting a crazy number of amazing characters: Supergirl, The Atom, Firestorm, Vibe, The Guardian, etc. Where are they in the DC You? Why doesn't Supergirl have a book? Geez guys... it can't be that hard!

Berganza is behind abominations superman, WW, teen titans and earth 2. Earth 2 sold so well with robinson, WTH a editor destroy a good franchise.
if you look at his comments when he edited supergirl in 2005-06 you will see how he is out of touch and shouldn't be close to edit female characters.

there is a lot of sexism on dealing with lois and wonder woman. WW shouldn't be dating superman, smww is a sexist crap fest.
powergirl and huntress are suffering on earth 2.

I don't get how DC doesn't take the tv show characters and do something good about it. even green arrow and flash should get more sales and better writers;

[colonyofcells]

In dc, both green lantern and flash are superfluous bec Superman is too powerful. Dc should try to promote other heroes who can be shown beating up Superman or Batman.

[Ascended]

In dc, both green lantern and flash are superfluous bec Superman is too powerful. Dc should try to promote other heroes who can be shown beating up Superman or Batman.

Post-Crisis was full of people beating up Superman, who was only "arguably" stronger than Diana, Billy, J'onn, and others.. It didnt seem to help anyone.

I do agree that Batman needs to be pulled off his pedestal. At least give us an Elseworlds where he's the villain instead of Superman for a change.

And Harras, who caused Marvel to go bankrupt through his negligence and mismanagement, is the man in charge? Unless DC planted him at Marvel to destroy them there is no reason to expect him to be anything other than a disaster.

The first step in fixing DC is firing Didio, Harras, and their ilk and replacing them with editors who actually care about telling good stories.

Well, other than Harras who proved his inability with Marvel, I dont know if we can really blame DC's upper management completely. Because they still answer to WB.

I said it years ago and I maintain that the 52 reboot almost certainly got forced on Didio by his bosses. After Brightest Day there were obviously plans for a bunch of characters and a general plan for where the DCU was headed. Then, in extremely short order we find out about the reboot and its execution is haphazard in the fact that people were clearly not on the same page and lots of details weren't nailed down (Titans history being the biggest example). So are we to think that after carefully crafting the next era of storylines and themes post-Brightest Day (a process that took years) Didio just said screw it, let's reboot and not worry about it? I dont think so. So many man-hours wasted by that. So many paychecks written whose work never turned a profit or bore fruit.

I think what happened is WB came down and told Didio to increase his profit margins for the comics division of DC, and do it quick or start looking for a new job. So Didio and the rest of DC's inner circle had to come up with something massive to get the kind of increases being demanded of them. We know they were talking about rebooting Superman, so what if that provided the idea of rebooting the entire company, which was sure to get lots of attention and bring up the sales, at least long enough for them to implement a stronger plan (which might have been the DCYou)?

Something is clearly amiss at DC. And Lee, Harras, Didio, Johns, and whoever else sits at the big table hold responsibility for the company in their care. But WB still owns them and we also know that they've stuck their noses in DC's business and forced things through that no one wanted. So while the DC guys are easy targets, I suspect that at least some of the time they're not the ones at fault, their idiot bosses at WB are.

Point Im making is, getting rid of Didio and Harras and Lee and Johns might not fix things the way people think they will. I wouldnt cry if it happened, but would it really fix the company? Depends on how heavy-handed WB is.

[GlennSimpson]

I am of the understanding that most of Marvel's problems in the 90's that led to bankruptcy were from things like buying ToyBiz which Harras had nothing to do with.

[ilovelocust]

Berganza is behind abominations superman, WW, teen titans and earth 2. Earth 2 sold so well with robinson, WTH a editor destroy a good franchise.
if you look at his comments when he edited supergirl in 2005-06 you will see how he is out of touch and shouldn't be close to edit female characters.

there is a lot of sexism on dealing with lois and wonder woman. WW shouldn't be dating superman, smww is a sexist crap fest.
powergirl and huntress are suffering on earth 2.

I don't get how DC doesn't take the tv show characters and do something good about it. even green arrow and flash should get more sales and better writers;

Superman/Wonder Woman brought my mother back into comics.

[Tayswift]

Superman/Wonder Woman brought my mother back into comics.

I saw many women turn off by it

[Lee Stone]

I think I kind of agree. I'm more or less in the same boat but I'd expand on it a bit more but first I'd like to make note of a couple other things slightly related.

I noticed a while ago that it seems to me that DC enthusiasts tend to complain a good bit more than the predominantly Marvel enthusiasts. The reason for this, I feel, is traditionally DC has produced a much larger (tonal) range of pretty great books. This is simultaneously more true and false since Flashpoint. In theory the DCU is Superman and Batman but it's also Hellblazer and the Authority. Some readers may place Ellis' Planetary run as one of their favorite things while another reader may point to Wolfman's Teen Titans. Obviously the breadth of DC's publication history is bigger than those two titles but my point isn't to point out all the high water marks of DCU's collective history but to illustrate that oftentimes people who disagree vehemently about the direction they'd like to see DC go in are all kinda secretly agreeing to a point that goes mostly unspoken. DC , (imo , ) at its best, can be seen as a collection of superlatives. DC has the potential to make the most all ages books just like they have the potential to make the best mature audience titles. They shouldn't just be doing more of one thing, they should be doing more of all things.

The reality is, since Flashpoint (and I don't blame all of DC's ails on Flashpoint) what should have been a much larger universe has become a much smaller one in many ways [Kinda, while Convergence wasn't be best scripted book in the world the final result and general idea were both pretty amazingly good. The end of the event granted DC even more potential for the vastness which is it's hallmark. That said, from what I've seen so far they've failed to exploit this to its full potential.] . Instead of a universe which embraces the nuances of its diverse (i.e. DCU, Vertigo, Wildstorm, Charlton, etc..) history . To be clear, by “nuances of its history” I don't necessarily mean the actual specifics of what happened in those books but rather the vastness of tonal diversity presented in those books. It seems to me that instead of bringing all of the amazing things about those universes together they've eliminated most of that uniqueness in favor of a much more homogeneous mass and painted it all with a glowy Tron line veneer. The pigeonholing of all the characters into more or less the same age demographic is also a manifestation of the same problem imo and really holds DC back (by my reckoning at least) at this point. In short while the post Flashpoint DCU contains more intellectual properties those properties have been largely stripped down of the aspects that endear them to the people who hold them in the highest regard.

At a time not too long ago I would have agreed about the “better writers” thing but I'm not so sure any more. I don't know much about DC behind the scenes so I can't even attempt to understand the whys behind this but I've noticed that while many of the creators in recent years that start to make a bit of a reputation for themselves at DC wind up at Marvel doing pretty great things. Tom King, for example, has done a bang up job on Grayson and Omega Men but The Vision… That's a book I'm truly excited about in a way that's pretty uncommon for mainstream titles.. If it was more or less the same book but with the Red Tornado? G-d damn I'd be excited! Obviously King is just one example but I don't think the issue is as simple as DC needs to get better creators. There's something else holding them back. I don't think it's something as cut and dry as “editorial mandates” and I wouldn't even go so far to blame the real DC trinity (Didio, Lee and Johns). At the end of the day I (and I imagine most all of us) don't really know what goes on behind the scenes and placing blame with one person or even a couple people seems at best trivial and at worst potentially counter productive. Still, as a reader, the question kinda remains “why is the current DC output so much less than it could potentially be”. I don't know the answer but there's got to be some reason. It's clear that DC can acquire high caliber talent but why is it so often that said talent seems to flourish so much more elsewhere?

As a kinda minor point one thing I've noticed in a lot of DC books that I'm personally not really crazy about is what specifically gets decompressed. This isn't so much a universal problem with DC but just a trend I've noticed. In general I'm a fan of decompressed storytelling. If there's an issue of a book that's mostly a conversation I think that can be really productive to the story. I don't mind long arcs, in fact I really like them. What I've noticed however is what tends to get “decompressed” the most are fight scenes which don't really need it. While I don't mind an issue dedicated to conversation or something more along those lines … these benefit from decompression because it allows for more dialogue… a fight scene which drags out through an issue or more is generally just filler which slows down any kinda potential character development which DC desperately can use in a lot of places.

I'm gonna end this with one last minor gripe. It's kinda vague but over the past several years (going back to even the time before Flashpoint) I've developed a kinda trust issue with DC. At one time I'd allow a DC title to remain on my pull list for a longer period than I do now. Even if I didn't like one particular arc I would wait it out to see how it ended or how it fed into the next one and more often than not I'd be rewarded for it. Sure, I'd drop titles but it took more to make me do so. This is no longer the case. Too often I have found myself let down by DC output so I'm much more likely to drop a title after an issue or two which wasn't up to my expectations.

I'm still kinda sad that Vertigo (the real Vertigo) was killed by Berger leaving and New52 absorbing the DCU characters back into it.
Yes, there still is a Vertigo. But it's name only. Anyone who read Vertigo, especially early Vertigo titles steeped in mysticism and weirdness, can tell it's a hollow shell now.
Yes, there was a DC Dark. But all those characters that each had individual narratives, in a claustrophobic world all their own, were forced into a world filled with superheroes. Suddenly the laws changed. Everything shifted into a different context. Threats on a global scale wouldn't just affect them and would attract the attention of the Batcrew (JLA).
So many ideas couldn't be used now. Turning the people of the world into disembodied names? Let's see that happen now without becoming a crossover with Batman or Superman.
I, Vampire could have been as big as American Vampire. But because of the context of its world, certain things could not be allowed to happen.
The New52 Dark Universe was like putting a leash on Vertigo and surrounding them with floodlights. And then expecting them to be subordinate to the real heroes of the DCU.

Where was the harm in letting the characters drift in and out of Vertigo?
Batman's had how many graphic novels and mini-series that aren't even canon? Dark Knight 3 is about to be out. What if it had to conform to the DCU? Why isn't it?
How come it gets to be in a vacuum, but nothing else featuring DC characters can be?
Second, how does Batman get to be featured in a non-canon book simultaneously while being published monthly in a canon series?
Now, why were the Vertigo characters neutered again?

Oh, because DC wanted to bring that level of writing to the DCU.
And because they felt the characters were "unavailable" to DCU writers.
Readers wanted to see these characters in the real DCU, interacting with the big heroes.

Well, by forcing them into the square pegs of the DCU, they managed to-
A. Remove any sense of urgency or feeling of horror, both key elements of Vertigo.
B. Clipped their nails because the storytelling world was now shared.
C. Made the characters less unique by not allowing readers to forget they're now in the larger DCU.

And where are these characters now?
It may as well be 1984 again.
Everything that DC gained since: Swamp Thing, Hellblazer, Animal-Man, Sandman, Doom Patrol, Shade the Changing Man that led to the formation of Vertigo... it's as if none of that happened now.
It'll have to take a new Alan Moore, a new Karen Berger, a new Neil Gaiman, a new Grant Morrison, a new Jamie Delano and a new Peter Milligan to rebuild what DC tore down.

And that's just Vertigo.

[gbryantlucas]

Post-Crisis was full of people beating up Superman, who was only "arguably" stronger than Diana, Billy, J'onn, and others.. It didnt seem to help anyone.

I do agree that Batman needs to be pulled off his pedestal. At least give us an Elseworlds where he's the villain instead of Superman for a change.



Well, other than Harras who proved his inability with Marvel, I dont know if we can really blame DC's upper management completely. Because they still answer to WB.

I said it years ago and I maintain that the 52 reboot almost certainly got forced on Didio by his bosses. After Brightest Day there were obviously plans for a bunch of characters and a general plan for where the DCU was headed. Then, in extremely short order we find out about the reboot and its execution is haphazard in the fact that people were clearly not on the same page and lots of details weren't nailed down (Titans history being the biggest example). So are we to think that after carefully crafting the next era of storylines and themes post-Brightest Day (a process that took years) Didio just said screw it, let's reboot and not worry about it? I dont think so. So many man-hours wasted by that. So many paychecks written whose work never turned a profit or bore fruit.

I think what happened is WB came down and told Didio to increase his profit margins for the comics division of DC, and do it quick or start looking for a new job. So Didio and the rest of DC's inner circle had to come up with something massive to get the kind of increases being demanded of them. We know they were talking about rebooting Superman, so what if that provided the idea of rebooting the entire company, which was sure to get lots of attention and bring up the sales, at least long enough for them to implement a stronger plan (which might have been the DCYou)?

Something is clearly amiss at DC. And Lee, Harras, Didio, Johns, and whoever else sits at the big table hold responsibility for the company in their care. But WB still owns them and we also know that they've stuck their noses in DC's business and forced things through that no one wanted. So while the DC guys are easy targets, I suspect that at least some of the time they're not the ones at fault, their idiot bosses at WB are.

Point Im making is, getting rid of Didio and Harras and Lee and Johns might not fix things the way people think they will. I wouldnt cry if it happened, but would it really fix the company? Depends on how heavy-handed WB is.

No doubt that WB had something to do with it, but it's Didio, Lee, Harras, Berganza, Johns, etc. who are responsible for the creative direction of the company. Mark Doyle has turned the Bat-Line into something amazing. It ridiculously diverse and creative. I just wish the Superman line was getting the same kind of treatment, but as long as Eddie Berganza and his misogynist pals are in charge of the Superman books, we're gonna get more of the same. Give me a "Batgirl of Burnside" version of Supergirl, or a Gotham Central-like series based on The Daily Planet! Nope. How about more Superman? We'll even throw in his super-sexy, arm candy - Wonder Woman. Thanks, but no thanks.