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  1. #3481
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    IDK, IIRC, ITT happens all the time. CMV.
    And I have no idea what those last two mean, as your post is the very first time I have seen either one.
    "Theory: The Phoenix doesn't corrupt the characters, it corrupts the authors." Gambit, King of Thieves

  2. #3482
    Mighty Member TriggerWarning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by From The Shadows View Post
    NA means Native Americans.
    Ok, I would have said Narcotics Anonymous if you asked me without context.

  3. #3483
    Spectacular Member Kuro no Shinigami's Avatar
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    Labor unions exist to protect workers' rights. That's what I believe. Police unions are something different. Like labor unions, they protect the cops' rights to have a higher pay and a safe work environment, but they also have something to do with police brutality.

    In the United States, police unions are known to "go to battle" for their workers. While this is common behavior for unions, it can be particularly complex in the case of police officers, as they may work to protect officers who have been engaged in misconduct, harassment, or brutality.[88] In some cases, police unions have worked to restore job positions for police officers, after they have been removed from their jobs in courts, via secret court proceedings.[89] Pittsburgh City Paper reported that, when police unions appealed police terminations through arbitration, the positions were restored in about 70% of all cases.[90]

    Police unions have large political influence in their communities. Politicians seek their endorsements when running for office,[91] and district attorney campaigns often receive donations from police unions.[92] Consequently, police unions have been criticized as being too powerful and working against the public interest. They have also been criticized for commanding too much money from city budgets.[38]
    The text is copied and pasted from wikipedia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police...#Police_unions

    Should police unions be allowed to remain in existence? Or should they disband?

  4. #3484
    Mighty Member TriggerWarning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuro no Shinigami View Post
    Labor unions exist to protect workers' rights. That's what I believe. Police unions are something different. Like labor unions, they protect the cops' rights to have a higher pay and a safe work environment, but they also have something to do with police brutality.
    Should police unions be allowed to remain in existence? Or should they disband?
    Police unions also exist to ensure there is cause for firing an officer. In departments without unions officers will be fired for arresting / ticketing the mayor, council member, family member of the above, or well connected person. Having a process and actual cause to fire someone helps ensure officers can safely do the right thing when confronted with such a decision.

    When union officers get their jobs back its often because departments failed to follow their own policies regarding discipline.

    I can't find it on google now that I tried but roughly 5 years ago there was an officer in the St Louis area but for a small department in the area (thus no union) who made a traffic stop and got a ton of drugs and weapons off a guy and booked him for it. His mom was a city council member and had him fired the next day for it. He sued and got his job back. Fast forward a bit and he is dispatched to domestic violence call. Same bad guy and he's beaten his girlfriend. He arrests bad guy for domestic battery. He again gets fired in retaliation. Don't know if he got his job back this time or not. Regardless the message loud and clear to officers on that department is to overlook crime by anyone connected to a council member if you want to keep getting a paycheck.

    Furthermore unions are the only thing keeping many agencies from gutting police officer salaries and benefits. Its already incredibly difficult to recruit quality officers and without unions it will be even harder as pay and benefits go down. Which will lead to departments forcing to accept George Zimmerman types (he was rejected from multiple depts).

  5. #3485
    Amazing Member Adam Allen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriggerWarning View Post
    Police unions also exist to ensure there is cause for firing an officer. In departments without unions officers will be fired for arresting / ticketing the mayor, council member, family member of the above, or well connected person. Having a process and actual cause to fire someone helps ensure officers can safely do the right thing when confronted with such a decision.

    When union officers get their jobs back its often because departments failed to follow their own policies regarding discipline.

    I can't find it on google now that I tried but roughly 5 years ago there was an officer in the St Louis area but for a small department in the area (thus no union) who made a traffic stop and got a ton of drugs and weapons off a guy and booked him for it. His mom was a city council member and had him fired the next day for it. He sued and got his job back. Fast forward a bit and he is dispatched to domestic violence call. Same bad guy and he's beaten his girlfriend. He arrests bad guy for domestic battery. He again gets fired in retaliation. Don't know if he got his job back this time or not. Regardless the message loud and clear to officers on that department is to overlook crime by anyone connected to a council member if you want to keep getting a paycheck.

    Furthermore unions are the only thing keeping many agencies from gutting police officer salaries and benefits. Its already incredibly difficult to recruit quality officers and without unions it will be even harder as pay and benefits go down. Which will lead to departments forcing to accept George Zimmerman types (he was rejected from multiple depts).
    Meaning no offense, but if you tried and could not find factual references for your story, maybe resist the urge to recall it in such detail? I mean, between the cop, the council member and the son, you're kind of recalling a lot of detail about them all and their interactions with each other ... but, the most specific detail you can recall is a small department in the St. Louis area? I mean, I was just about to say there's over a million people in the area, based on having grown up there, but then I was able to do a quick check and find out there's nearly three million, at this point.

    For what it's worth, I didn't assume your story was not true, and actually took a little bit of time to try and find more detail about it, myself ... but, I had no luck, and unfortunately the way you recalled this story reminded me of a conversation I had at work in the last week. A co-worker tells me that now, protesters in places like Portland are now firing tear gas at police. I ask, do you mean, like throwing canisters back or something? He says no, protesters are coming armed with their own guns and firing canisters at the police. I said I was sure that was not happening, but he insisted it was. I said I would believe him when he showed me even one story referencing this, so he went to look online. He did not find any such story, and I didn't rub it in. But, I hoped he might privately consider how certain he'd been in sharing important information with someone, when that information apparently had no basis in facts.

    I think it's a good idea to try and fact-check ourselves, on a regular basis. It turns out that memory is a pretty unreliable tool, for whatever reason.
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  6. #3486
    Mighty Member TriggerWarning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Allen View Post
    Meaning no offense, but if you tried and could not find factual references for your story, maybe resist the urge to recall it in such detail? I mean, between the cop, the council member and the son, you're kind of recalling a lot of detail about them all and their interactions with each other ... but, the most specific detail you can recall is a small department in the St. Louis area? I mean, I was just about to say there's over a million people in the area, based on having grown up there, but then I was able to do a quick check and find out there's nearly three million, at this point.

    For what it's worth, I didn't assume your story was not true, and actually took a little bit of time to try and find more detail about it, myself ... but, I had no luck, and unfortunately the way you recalled this story reminded me of a conversation I had at work in the last week. A co-worker tells me that now, protesters in places like Portland are now firing tear gas at police. I ask, do you mean, like throwing canisters back or something? He says no, protesters are coming armed with their own guns and firing canisters at the police. I said I was sure that was not happening, but he insisted it was. I said I would believe him when he showed me even one story referencing this, so he went to look online. He did not find any such story, and I didn't rub it in. But, I hoped he might privately consider how certain he'd been in sharing important information with someone, when that information apparently had no basis in facts.

    I think it's a good idea to try and fact-check ourselves, on a regular basis. It turns out that memory is a pretty unreliable tool, for whatever reason.
    Here you go. I did have a few details off. It was seven years ago not five and three officers total were fired, not one. Otherwise the fact pattern is basically what I said. Its hard to find older stuff involving police because so many newer articles suck up the search hits. I had to include about 20 search terms from what I recalled to finally find it and even then it was buried.

    https://fox2now.com/news/fox-files/a...l-end-up-dead/

    https://leoaffairs.com/councilwoman-...d-beating-son/

    A city councilwoman in a suburb of St. Louis is being investigated; not by law enforcement, but by a local news agency for interfering with police and even having officers fired. An officer has been fired, twice, for investigating incidents involving the councilwoman’s son that included dealing crack cocaine and heroin as well as domestic battery on his girlfriend.
    Last edited by TriggerWarning; 07-30-2020 at 07:28 AM.

  7. #3487
    Paranoid Android ChadH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriggerWarning View Post
    Here you go. I did have a few details off. It was seven years ago not five and three officers total were fired, not one. Otherwise the fact pattern is basically what I said. Its hard to find older stuff involving police because so many newer articles suck up the search hits. I had to include about 20 search terms from what I recalled to finally find it and even then it was buried.

    https://fox2now.com/news/fox-files/a...l-end-up-dead/

    https://leoaffairs.com/councilwoman-...d-beating-son/
    I'd argue the problem isn't necessarily a lack of a Police union, but the community failing to hold their council people responsible for corruption and abuse of power. Union or not, that council person is still going to abuse her position.
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  8. #3488
    Mighty Member TriggerWarning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChadH View Post
    I'd argue the problem isn't necessarily a lack of a Police union, but the community failing to hold their council people responsible for corruption and abuse of power. Union or not, that council person is still going to abuse her position.
    The problem is that the people who want police to to be reformed want officers willing to do the right and thing and step up. They also want to get rid of unions and contracts which will basically make officers at-will employees who can be fired at any time without a cause being needed. What officer is going to speak up and do the right thing if they know there is a good chance they'll be fired for it and have no grievance or appeal process?

    What gets problem officers their jobs back many times is the police dept failing to follow their own rules and policies. Police contracts aren't really much different than contracts and policy manuals for many companies where there is a written out disciplinary policy that requires progressive discipline, notification of offenses, guaranteed meetings with supervisors, training, etc. Basically for lesser offenses you get counseling and written warnings followed by increasingly severe penalties if the employee doesn't approve. But then the employer fails to follow their own policies by skipping many of these steps or not documenting that they happened so suddenly something happens and they want to fire somebody and there is nothing from the employer to show a history of bad behavior except undocumented claims because they failed to follow the documenting and policies in the past. The current offense alone wouldn't be be a fireable offense but with the history it is only there is no documented history. Or the agency just skips straight to firing without going through the hearing process for political reasons as the leaders want to show instant accountability without following policy themselves. Generally the cops who draw the most complaints are the good cops who are out there making lots of good arrests and putting lots of bad guys in jail.

    There is also the problem that many people just have no concept of how many false complaints get lodged against cops all the time. Filing a rudeness or use of force complaint is the go to act of revenge for many bad guys to try and deflect from their own crime or the ticket they got despite their really great excuse. A history of complaints against any officer is meaningless without context of what those complaints are. Whereas a history of no complaints is actually more problematic as it either means an officer who is just hiding out all shift watching Netflix or a department that doesn't document complaints.
    Last edited by TriggerWarning; 07-30-2020 at 11:37 AM.

  9. #3489
    Spectacular Member Kuro no Shinigami's Avatar
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    Ironically, the city council that can defund or abolish the police might be full of corrupt councilors

  10. #3490
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    And I have no idea what those last two mean, as your post is the very first time I have seen either one.
    In This Thread and Change My View.

  11. #3491
    Spectacular Member Kuro no Shinigami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriggerWarning View Post
    Police unions also exist to ensure there is cause for firing an officer. In departments without unions officers will be fired for arresting / ticketing the mayor, council member, family member of the above, or well connected person. Having a process and actual cause to fire someone helps ensure officers can safely do the right thing when confronted with such a decision.

    When union officers get their jobs back its often because departments failed to follow their own policies regarding discipline.


    Furthermore unions are the only thing keeping many agencies from gutting police officer salaries and benefits. Its already incredibly difficult to recruit quality officers and without unions it will be even harder as pay and benefits go down. Which will lead to departments forcing to accept George Zimmerman types (he was rejected from multiple depts).
    I had given thought about what you said. I have to admit I agree with what you said. If good cops need unions to save or get back their jobs, I am okay with that. However, the unions don't need to protect some bad apples, not when there is sufficient concrete proof of their guilt.

    Union may not be a bad idea. Unfortunately, some union leaders are so rotten, they can corrupt the whole union. There is an old saying, "A rotten apple quickly infects its neighbor" that may suit the corrupt cops' dilemma.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_apples

  12. #3492
    Mighty Member TriggerWarning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuro no Shinigami View Post
    If good cops need unions to save or get back their jobs, I am okay with that. However, the unions don't need to protect some bad apples, not when there is sufficient concrete proof of their guilt.

    [/url]
    It doesn't work like that. For instance, with the Fraternal Order of Police most members may a monthly fee for legal defense in case they need a lawyer. This guarantees you a lawyer if your involved in some sort of disciplinary or legal action due to actions on duty. Its no different than criminals getting guaranteed lawyers. Its not hard to fire bad cops if agencies actually follow their own policies regarding due process and the rules they have set in place for discipline, I'll spare you repeating what I typed earlier, and bad cops do lose their jobs all the time either by firing or resignation before they can be fired. Cops have the same legal rights as citizens though which is "innocent until proven guilty" which frustrates a lot of police critics who want instant gratification in regards to accountability. Which then leads to miscarriages of justice like the cops in Atlanta who were charged with murder for killing Rayshard Brooks. I'm 99.9999% confident they will be exonerated and then later get a large settlement from the city of Atlanta because the prosecutor is a corrupt politician under criminal investigation himself who only charged them to boost his flagging re-election campaign. He lied multiple times in his press briefing about the charging and contradicted himself. For instance he claimed he charged them based on the recommendation of the Georgia Bureau of Investigation's recommendations but the GBI came out afterwards and said they weren't even close to being done with the investigation let alone with a determination of what if any charges should be filed. Then there is the fact that just two weeks earlier this prosecutor is on record calling a taser a deadly weapon when justifying charges against other cops for tasering someone but is now claiming its not a deadly weapon - can't have it both ways. And then there will be obviously be disagreements over whether they were good cops who got railroaded by a corrupt DA or bad cops who got away with it (the opinion of all the cop critics). But either way if their union dues guarantee them a lawyer then they get a lawyer.

  13. #3493
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    I think it's important to remember that the political interests in the United States that make laws and enforce them get there because of corporate money. As much as you might complain about the politicans or the police, they wouldn't have that power if not for those corporations. If corporate interests wanted civil rights, a clean environment, good health care--they could make that happen immediately. All they seem to want is no taxes and access to cheap labour. And in return, from the state, they get free infrastructure, energy, policing, land, resources--the people pay for all that through their taxes and their work.

    As bad as Donald Trump is, he wouldn't exist if unelected special interests didn't want him there. They are the real villains.
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  14. #3494
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    I think it's important to remember that the political interests in the United States that make laws and enforce them get there because of corporate money. As much as you might complain about the politicans or the police, they wouldn't have that power if not for those corporations. If corporate interests wanted civil rights, a clean environment, good health care--they could make that happen immediately. All they seem to want is no taxes and access to cheap labour. And in return, from the state, they get free infrastructure, energy, policing, land, resources--the people pay for all that through their taxes and their work.

    As bad as Donald Trump is, he wouldn't exist if unelected special interests didn't want him there. They are the real villains.
    I agree with everything you said except the underlined. I don't dispute that there were (and are) some corporate interests that see benefit in him, but I suspect this is a much more nuanced case than a monolithic block of special interests empowering Trump.

  15. #3495
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyriVerse View Post
    Any NBA team would destroy the Globetrotters and there wouldn't be the fun.
    The point would not really be competitive play.

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