Controversial Opinions (For Everything Other Than DC Comics)

[Kuro no Shinigami]

There was a discussion about Donald Trump's father raising a monster in the other thread.

Do you think that a monster is born a monster or becomes a monster?

Some children who grew in an abusive household were Adolf Hitler and Richard Allen Davis. Other children including Sir Patrick Stewart and Bill Clinton who grew up in an abusive household with a father whose parenting methods are similar to Fred Trump didn't become monsters

[godisawesome]

There was a discussion about Donald Trump's father raising a monster in the other thread.

Do you think that a monster is born a monster or becomes a monster?

Some children who grew in an abusive household were Adolf Hitler and Richard Allen Davis. Other children including Sir Patrick Stewart and Bill Clinton who grew up in an abusive household with a father whose parenting methods are similar to Fred Trump didn't become monsters

Monsters *grow* one way or another - nature can and does play a part with the “base” material, nurture provides a kind of “cultivating” and “grooming” effect, but eventually the “output” of both has to use their own agency to walk the final steps towards being a monster, particularly large scale ones.

[Kuro no Shinigami]

Monsters *grow* one way or another - nature can and does play a part with the “base” material, nurture provides a kind of “cultivating” and “grooming” effect, but eventually the “output” of both has to use their own agency to walk the final steps towards being a monster, particularly large scale ones.

I agree. Nature versus nurture does play a role in one's upbringing.

For example, Donald Trump could have become his own man but ended up being a carbon copy of his father. Maybe it is in his genes. Maybe Fred nurtured him too much. The greedy desire to inherit his daddy's vast fortune might have been the final step towards being a monster.

Donald's brother Fred Junior tried to become his own man rather than follow in his daddy's footsteps. but he failed at that. He drank himself to death afterwards.

[CaptCleghorn]

Having raised a grand total of one child, I can speak to his development. The nature vs. nurture argument is one that IMHO has no defined boundary. Sure there are aspects that are obviously genetic, but even with being born a certain way life will give a person experiences to flavor their choices. I do know that kids learn from examples and even with my raising my son, I see where he's picked up both good and not-so-good qualities.

Looking at examples like the Trumps or the Kennedys, we can see where similar socioeconomic circumstances provide very different. Politics are very heavily flavored by family. But in the words of my son, "I grew up thinking of myself as a liberal. Then I went to college in Cambridge (MA) and realized I was more conservative than I thought."

As for Trump specifically, I believe that children need to realize that they must face consequences of their misdeeds. Sure, every kid gets away with some stuff, but if there's a miraculous cover-up and bailing out when misdeeds are discovered, no conscience is gained.

[Gray Lensman]

There was a discussion about Donald Trump's father raising a monster in the other thread.

Do you think that a monster is born a monster or becomes a monster?

Some children who grew in an abusive household were Adolf Hitler and Richard Allen Davis. Other children including Sir Patrick Stewart and Bill Clinton who grew up in an abusive household with a father whose parenting methods are similar to Fred Trump didn't become monsters

It depends on the person. Some people just become monsters no matter how well they were raised. Others become decent people despite having all the cards stacked against them. But personally I think nurture plays a role for most people - possibly the biggest role, but there are always exceptions and we shouldn't discount that.

[Kirby101]

Hard to say. We know the Trumps were a horrible family going back to his great grandfather. We also know Fred Trump was a terrible father. In the genes or in the culture? A combination of both probably. But Donald seems to have been a sociopath since he was a child, so I would say he was born with a lot of his tendencies.

[Starter Set]

The whole redskin drama has to be the most ridiculous thing i have seen since Trump's election as president of those US of A.

[Kirby101]

The whole redskin drama has to be the most ridiculous thing i have seen since Trump's election as president of those US of A.

How so? The name has always been an abomination.

[Jim Kelly]

For decades, in the Canadian Football League, there was the Saskatchewan Roughriders and the Ottawa Rough Riders. There was constant debate about who should give up the name. In the end, the Ottawa franchise folded. When they came back as a new franchise, they were the Ottawa Renegades. That team folded when they lost their stadium. Finally they came back in their new incarnation as the Ottawa Redblacks. Which is an odd name. You do have names like that in rugby, but on the face of it Redblack could seem vaguely offensive. It's based on the team uniforms having red and black. And it's a call back to the days of the lumberjacks in the Ottawa valley, who wore red and black check shirts. That shirt is a staple in every Canadian home. But I think they should have just called themselves the Ottawa Lumberjack Shirts.

[Jack Dracula]

How so? The name has always been an abomination.

There is the argument that changing sports team names is probably the least helpful crusade to commit resources to.

[Kuro no Shinigami]

It depends on the person. Some people just become monsters no matter how well they were raised. Others become decent people despite having all the cards stacked against them. But personally I think nurture plays a role for most people - possibly the biggest role, but there are always exceptions and we shouldn't discount that.

Yes, Sir Patrick Stewart is a good exception. The way he described his father in an interview, I believe Stewart's father sounded a lot like Fred Trump.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Stewart

Patrick Stewart spent much of his childhood in Jarrow and grew up in a poor household with domestic violence from his father, an experience which later influenced his political and ideological beliefs. His father Alfred worked as a general labourer and as a postman. As a result of his wartime experience during the Dunkirk evacuation, his father suffered from what was then known as combat fatigue (related to what is now known as post-traumatic stress disorder). In a 2008 interview, Stewart said:

My father was a very potent individual, a very powerful man, who got what he wanted. It was said that when he strode onto the parade ground, birds stopped singing. It was many, many years before I realised how my father inserted himself into my work. I've grown a moustache for Macbeth. My father didn't have one, but when I looked in the mirror just before I went on stage I saw my father's face staring straight back at me.

So Sir Patrick compared his father to Macbeth. I am glad he didn't end up being like his father.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macbeth

Macbeth was a Scottish general who receives a prophecy that one day he will become King of Scotland. Consumed by ambition and spurred to action by his wife, Macbeth murders King Duncan and takes the Scottish throne for himself. He is then wracked with guilt and paranoia. Forced to commit more and more murders to protect himself from enmity and suspicion, he soon becomes a tyrannical ruler. The bloodbath and consequent civil war swiftly take Macbeth and Lady Macbeth into the realms of madness and death.

Speaking of which, doesn't Donald Trump remind you a bit of Macbeth?

[DrNewGod]

...Macbeth was a Scottish general...wracked with guilt and paranoia....doesn't Donald Trump remind you a bit of Macbeth?

Trump doesn't have the guts to be a soldier, and he is utterly devoid of the emotional capabilities that would enable guilt. So, no, not really.

[Kuro no Shinigami]

...Macbeth was a Scottish general...wracked with guilt and paranoia....doesn't Donald Trump remind you a bit of Macbeth?

Trump doesn't have the guts to be a soldier, and he is utterly devoid of the emotional capabilities that would enable guilt. So, no, not really.

So Trump was also not paranoid?

[Gray Lensman]

So Trump was also not paranoid?

Paranoid, yes. But by being incapable of feeling guilt, and not even brave enough to fire someone face to face, it makes me think MacBeth is a poor figure to compare Trump too. I doubt Trump would go down swinging if faced with the end like MacBeth was, but would instead go down whining and pleading. The wounds would all be on his back.

[C_Miller]

There is the argument that changing sports team names is probably the least helpful crusade to commit resources to.

Least helpful? Sure. It doesn't actually do anything. But it also requires very little in the way of public resources. Sometimes there's nothing wrong with symbolic change.