Controversial Opinions (For Everything Other Than DC Comics)

[babyblob]

When you say "superiority", do you mean "genuine superiority" or "Nazis in all but name"?

I mean they are not putting people in death camps. I enjoy the we think we are better then everyone else snobbishness. That is what I mean by superior. Just the attitude.

I mean the dark evles put people in death camps. but I still dont think Nazi when I read them. I think evil fantasy bad guys.

[Adam Allen]

It's when you assume other people have the same feelings as you do. "If you're happy, everyone must be happy." "If you're sad, everyone must be sad." While unconscious bias is a serious problem in society, I don't think it's good to assume that every piece of work (with stuff like fantasy races) will have it.

Ironically, I say this while thinking of Pathfinder and their interpretation of ogres. They were pretty much the epitome of toxic hillbillies.

Nah, dude, I know what the concept of projection is, in general. I meant that I didn't understand what you meant, when you said, "Some part of that can just be projection."

I'm still not quite sure. I guess you're saying ... that if a writer writes something, some fans criticize its unsavory racial undertones, then the writer says that wasn't what they meant ... you're saying, it could be "projection" on the part of the fans who point out the racial aspect the author may not have intended?

I do not think that I agree. Any potential criticism of your artistic effort is valid, once you put it out for public consumption. That does not mean the critics are right, necessarily ... taking the GoT example, for instance, I'd say critics were almost certainly wrong if they said, "The lack of people of color in the world of Westoros means GRRM is racist." You might want to call that "projection", if you want.

It would not be "projection" to point out, though, that he created a fictional, fantastic version of Europe, but gave it a fictional history that is several times longer than all of human civilization on our planet ... and didn't see a problem with non-white people never doing anything of import to this fictional Europe, in all that time. I mean, that is the world he created, with Westeros. And it's a vision of reality that imagines that non-whites, apparently, had nothing of import to contribute. Now, understand, I am absolutely rock certain that was not the point he wanted to make, when he created Westoros. The bias is still there though, despite the fact that he didn't intend it.

[Gray Lensman]

Probably not a controversial opinion, but I absolutely hate it when the news participates in April Fool's Day. Things I should know about don't stop happening, but my ability to learn about them takes a forced 24 hour hiatus.

[CSTowle]

Thass just it, tho -- does fantasy setting mean that you (the author/creator) get to make up whatever rules and conventions you want? Well, yeah, definitely. But, news flash -- that's really true about absolutely ever fictional setting. You don't need to have your fiction set in some fantasy realm or outer space sci-fi place, to say that you get to make up your own rules. I can write a romance or a true crime type novel and throw in all kinds of unrealistic bs too, if I want, and it may be entertaining.

But, it's also true that making your story fictional does not exempt it from criticism -- be your setting a real world one, or a more fantastical one. If you write crime novel that has all kinds of nasty racial bias in it, the fact that it's fiction won't stop people from pointing out your bias. And likewise, just because you made it orcs or aliens or whatever -- if your racial bias bleeds through in your fiction, still totally fair for others to point that out.

Looking at you, GRRM, and a world with a setting (Westeros) whose history can be traced back tens of thousands of years ... without any brown or black folk doing anything significant in all that time, apparently. Okay, dude.

Maybe it was the names and place names, but I assumed Bravos and Oldtown where the Maesters were trained (and all of the world's knowledge was stored) was a very brown area. Not to mention all of the stops on the Daenerys march to Westeros, most of those places seemed more advanced than the countries in Westeros (culturally, even if many of them did keep slaves). But he obviously was more familiar with a less advanced and more barbaric old England/German/NW European type fantasy setting so most of the story took place there. As to black folk, I see this as taking place before widespread travel so it doesn't surprise me that there are no black main characters (or Asian, or Native American, etc.). I for one wish they'd spent more time in the Citadel, and was disappointed that Doran Martell's storyline was mostly overlooked in the show. I get it, can't include everything.

[Adam Allen]

Maybe it was the names and place names, but I assumed Bravos and Oldtown where the Maesters were trained (and all of the world's knowledge was stored) was a very brown area. Not to mention all of the stops on the Daenerys march to Westeros, most of those places seemed more advanced than the countries in Westeros (culturally, even if many of them did keep slaves). But he obviously was more familiar with a less advanced and more barbaric old England/German/NW European type fantasy setting so most of the story took place there. As to black folk, I see this as taking place before widespread travel so it doesn't surprise me that there are no black main characters (or Asian, or Native American, etc.). I for one wish they'd spent more time in the Citadel, and was disappointed that Doran Martell's storyline was mostly overlooked in the show. I get it, can't include everything.

No, yeah ... I think the Martells were coded to be maybe vaguely Arabic, and likewise lots of the stuff across the Narrow Sea (where Daenerys was) was probably meant to be Mediterranean, or at least not like lily-white Scandanavian/Nordic types like the Starks, Lannisters, and other primary characters. And it is totally fine that he wanted to base his primary characters in that part of the world, or have them look that way, or whatever. The little sticking point is just that he spent thousands of pages over a lot of books, fleshing out this very detailed world, and as he did so, he decided to paint a picture of Westeros' history going back twelve thousand years.

Yeah, if you go back 2,000 years in real world history, there's not a whole lot of widespread travel between continents. A thousand years, even. But how does civilization on the world of Westeros get to evolve to be many times older than ours, without any of those other races ever doing much of anything to impact anything that happened in Westeros? I mean, they have the black Summer Islanders in the books, so he acknowledges that different skin colors exist on that world. If he wanted to give some kind of magical reason for them to all remain separate, cool, I guess. He never did that, though. Just, 12,000 years of history, back to the First Men -- all white, somehow.

It's why I'm calling it bias, though ... because, I seriously doubt he intended to make any deliberate point about races and cultures staying separate over an inordinately extended length of time. His setting was just based vaguely around a time in human history when the majority of the people in a given area likely would look a lot alike, because as you say, there was not widespread travel. He just didn't really think through the optics of suggesting things could still look like that, if history went back a whole lot farther.

[CSTowle]

Maybe folk knew the rulers of Westeros (until very recently) ruled in part by utilizing the power of dragons and wisely decided to keep their distance. Good headcanon, if nothing else. Think the Wheel of Time will do better, and looking at casting they already are.

[OopsIdiditagain]

Female characters don't have to act like traditional heroes to be badass. Cinderella surviving an abusive household without losing her kindness is just as badass as Mulan beating up her enemies.

[Zelena]

Female characters don't have to act like traditional heroes to be badass. Cinderella surviving an abusive household without losing her kindness is just as badass as Mulan beating up her enemies.

Absolutely! Beat up the bad guys but kindly and with a smile…

[seismic-2]

Female characters don't have to act like traditional heroes to be badass. Cinderella surviving an abusive household without losing her kindness is just as badass as Mulan beating up her enemies.

I don't consider politely enduring one's victimhood to be badass. If Prince Charming hadn't come around looking for her, she would still be back at home scrubbing the floors and sleeping on the cinders, and her family still wouldn't give a damn whether she liked it or not. OK, Cinderella was totally badass in <i>Fables</i>, but there she was a cunning and ruthless secret agent.

[babyblob]

I think the strongest Disney princess was Ariel. She leaves home her friends and family and makes a life in this whole new strange world. That takes guts!

[OopsIdiditagain]

I don't consider politely enduring one's victimhood to be badass. If Prince Charming hadn't come around looking for her, she would still be back at home scrubbing the floors and sleeping on the cinders, and her family still wouldn't give a damn whether she liked it or not. OK, Cinderella was totally badass in <i>Fables</i>, but there she was a cunning and ruthless secret agent.

She didn't endure it though, she tried to resist it in her own way e.g. going to the ball on her own, not letting her family's abuse crush her dreams. I don't really see it as "enduring victimhood", I just see it as a character who finds it hard to leave an abusive situation. That's a reality for some, so I think Cinderella's strong for staying a good person despite what she went through.

[Adam Allen]

She didn't endure it though, she tried to resist it in her own way e.g. going to the ball on her own, not letting her family's abuse crush her dreams. I don't really see it as "enduring victimhood", I just see it as a character who finds it hard to leave an abusive situation. That's a reality for some, so I think Cinderella's strong for staying a good person despite what she went through.

Yeah, I'd have to agree with you. It may be hard-to-impossible to get out of a bad situation sometimes, and being overcome with despair or bitterness in such a situation would be understandable. I mean, in fact, becoming an angry and vengeful Punisher type is precisely what a certain kind of masculine mindset would call for, in response to a situation of continued abuse. So yeah, I'd say that remaining a kind person under such circumstances is a certain kind of badass, for all that many would not immediately think it so.

[seismic-2]

It certainly shows a strength of character to maintain an indomitable attitude under those circumstances and to persevere through them. That's admirable, or even noble. I don't see, though, how it's badass.

[inisideguy]

Oh I have one. Agents of Shield is the best live action marvel show they have ever done. Better than anything including the new shows. Come and get me.

[DrNewGod]

Oh I have one. Agents of Shield is the best live action marvel show they have ever done. Better than anything including the new shows. Come and get me.

Bold. I've enjoyed some of its arcs better than others.