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  1. #4231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    I never got the big love of Venom. OK, interesting villain, with the symbiote Spidey costume, but he virtually took over the Spider-Man books from Marvel for a time. I don't get the hype. Then again, I don't get how big The Joker has become and I never got the appeal of Lobo.
    My opinion: Venom had a few things going for him. First, he was drawn by Todd McFarlane and then Erik Larsen for his first 20 odd appearances. Even if they're not your cup of tea (I have my criticisms, but compared to the average artist of the day on mainstream superhero comics they were unique and interesting) they certainly grabbed attention. Secondly, he was a dark version of the hero which can be interesting if done right. A bigger version of Spider-Man with a monster's face. Of course, that looked ridiculous on Demogoblin, but hey. Third, he was a scary bag of powers including invisibility, limited shape-shifting, more physical strength than Spider-Man, and scariest of all he didn't trip Peter's "spidey-sense". Fourth, he knew who Spider-Man was, which wasn't an open secret amongst his villains at the time. Fifth, when he backed off from wanting to kill Spider-Man/Peter he became an anti-hero, and it was the era of anti-heroes. He had the whole violent/"kewl" look thing going on, like the Punisher or Ghost Rider or (as mentioned) Lobo.

    Joker, smart/unpredictable/capable of doing anything. There isn't much he could do at this point that would shock you, where the Riddler or Penguin or even Bane you could see lines they wouldn't cross. Second, his movie appearances were by far the most interesting of the Batman villains (IMO, and apparently others, outside of Leto's). I could do without about a thousand "Joker" motivational memes on Facebook lately, but I get the character's appeal.

    Lobo I think was meant to be a parody of the Wolverine/Venom type characters, but was still embraced by those who saw it that way and those who loved the Venoms/Ghost Riders/Wolverines/etc.

    Just my 2 cents, but think Venom and Lobo were products of their era and the Joker is adaptable and unpredictable enough to be a good villain in any era.

  2. #4232
    Invincible Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    I get why Joker can be a good villain, I just think he has become too powered up for someone with no powers and too overexposed.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  3. #4233
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    The next major G.I. Joe show or long-form storytelling entry should 100% embrace making Cobra a home-grown, Q-Anon-esque right-wing cult, even down to making the rank and file come off as being majority Americans consumed by denial and grievance narratives, and yes, some very blunt and acknowledged racism and sexism. Keep Destro and his faction as international professional mercenaries, sure, but don’t just double down on some of Larry Hama’s con-man backstory for Cobra and satire of the American Dream, quadruple down on it.

    And use that as an excuse for such a motley assortment of personnel for G.I. Joe - including how some of its members maybe aren’t comfortable with conducting warfare on American soil even if they believe Cobra must be opposed.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

  4. #4234
    Astonishing Member batnbreakfast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSTowle View Post
    My opinion: Venom had a few things going for him. First, he was drawn by Todd McFarlane and then Erik Larsen for his first 20 odd appearances. Even if they're not your cup of tea (I have my criticisms, but compared to the average artist of the day on mainstream superhero comics they were unique and interesting) they certainly grabbed attention. Secondly, he was a dark version of the hero which can be interesting if done right. A bigger version of Spider-Man with a monster's face. Of course, that looked ridiculous on Demogoblin, but hey. Third, he was a scary bag of powers including invisibility, limited shape-shifting, more physical strength than Spider-Man, and scariest of all he didn't trip Peter's "spidey-sense". Fourth, he knew who Spider-Man was, which wasn't an open secret amongst his villains at the time. Fifth, when he backed off from wanting to kill Spider-Man/Peter he became an anti-hero, and it was the era of anti-heroes. He had the whole violent/"kewl" look thing going on, like the Punisher or Ghost Rider or (as mentioned) Lobo.

    Joker, smart/unpredictable/capable of doing anything. There isn't much he could do at this point that would shock you, where the Riddler or Penguin or even Bane you could see lines they wouldn't cross. Second, his movie appearances were by far the most interesting of the Batman villains (IMO, and apparently others, outside of Leto's). I could do without about a thousand "Joker" motivational memes on Facebook lately, but I get the character's appeal.

    Lobo I think was meant to be a parody of the Wolverine/Venom type characters, but was still embraced by those who saw it that way and those who loved the Venoms/Ghost Riders/Wolverines/etc.

    Just my 2 cents, but think Venom and Lobo were products of their era and the Joker is adaptable and unpredictable enough to be a good villain in any era.
    Can't remember the last good Joker story I read. I hear John Carpenter's oneshot was well received. Jeff Lemire's take did nothing for me. Scott Snyder's Endgame I enjoyed.

  5. #4235
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    The next major G.I. Joe show or long-form storytelling entry should 100% embrace making Cobra a home-grown, Q-Anon-esque right-wing cult, even down to making the rank and file come off as being majority Americans consumed by denial and grievance narratives, and yes, some very blunt and acknowledged racism and sexism. Keep Destro and his faction as international professional mercenaries, sure, but don’t just double down on some of Larry Hama’s con-man backstory for Cobra and satire of the American Dream, quadruple down on it.

    And use that as an excuse for such a motley assortment of personnel for G.I. Joe - including how some of its members maybe aren’t comfortable with conducting warfare on American soil even if they believe Cobra must be opposed.
    Not a bad idea, even have the "Don't tread on me" snake flag to take inspiration from. But, I think a lot of the people who might have an interest in paying to see a movie or waiting to binge a show called "GI JOE: what-have-you" are also more likely to identify with the Qanon folk than against them. Not 100%, but enough that it'd probably inspire some backlash and not really draw in people who are anti-Q but couldn't care less about the franchise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    I get why Joker can be a good villain, I just think he has become too powered up for someone with no powers and too overexposed.
    So the mirror image of Batman?

  6. #4236
    Invincible Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSTowle View Post
    N
    So the mirror image of Batman?
    Yep, I hate the Batgod.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  7. #4237
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Yep, I hate the Batgod.
    I love the episode where Superman has to put on the cowl and solve the mystery of Batman's disappearance so, so much because it was a balm against the flood of InvincoBat stories.
    Dark does not mean deep.

  8. #4238
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    Watched a classic epsiode of GLOW (80s version not Netflix) on Tubi.

    They have season 3 listed as season one. Amway at the end of episode 16- a joke was made about Justice (one of the few black wrestlers) by Sara & Mabel (whose gimmicks were wearing white hoods and being from redneck territory.)

    The joke was about inviting Justice to something-the joke ended with inviting Justice to a LYNCH with the noose hand gesture. And yes LYNCH was said instead of lunch.

    This episode was from 1987-the wrestler Sally (who died last year) was doing Married With Children as one of Al's dream girls in an episode.

    I know there were some stereotypes in season one but how did that joke survive almost 35 years?

  9. #4239
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    Gray and grey morality is honestly overrated. Especially when the audience expects the conflict to resolve.

  10. #4240
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    I was doing some cleaning and organizing today and can across an old box of cards.

    People should not use their family as Christmas card photos. Putting you ******* ugly kid in a nice seater does not make me like them more.
    This Post Contains No Artificial Intelligence. It Contains No Human Intelligence Either.

  11. #4241
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    Gray morality is not inherently mature and black and white morality is not inherently childish. Recognizing when either applies is the mark of a true adult.

  12. #4242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Gray morality is not inherently mature and black and white morality is not inherently childish. Recognizing when either applies is the mark of a true adult.
    I agree. I also hate that violent comics are considered as “adult” comics… like “violence” is more realistic than “love” and “ideal”. Quality in fiction isn’t that simplistic.
    “Strength is the lot of but a few privileged men; but austere perseverance, harsh and continuous, may be employed by the smallest of us and rarely fails of its purpose, for its silent power grows irresistibly greater with time.” Goethe

  13. #4243
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    I'm not a psychologist, or even very educated (though very opinionated, not sure if there's a connection) but I'd imagine the reason love (or, more specifically love and its relation to sex) offends people more than violence is because violence makes people feel powerful (few project themselves onto or identify with the weaker party in a fictional violent encounter, and the "good guy" usually wins in the end) while love and sex can make you feel very vulnerable or remind you of times and situations where you were (or even just imagining potential situations). Also sex/sexual activity reminds us (like with waste elimination) that at the end of the day we're just animals. Again, not a comforting thought. Violently lashing out at a "bad guy", or imagining ourselves doing so in the place of Superman/Goku/etc. doesn't make us question ourselves (usually), it's just a nice and relatively harmless way to drain aggression/vent.

    As to gray morality, I think most morality is some shade of gray. There are a very few exceptions (harming children/the vulnerable), but mostly gray. If you mean people rejecting clear-cut boy scout types like the Supermans of the world for "edgy" antihero types like the Punisher or Venom, I'd agree that's kind of juvenile. But no harm done, and most grow out of it. And if they don't, who's to say they need to? I love comic books and I'm probably too old for that, video games and D&D as well. But I enjoy them, and will probably keep doing so for many years to come. I myself was not a fan of Superman as a kid (same juvenile attitude, he's not "kewl"), but Alan Moore and his "Supreme" run helped me get over that. And he's usually known for that whole gray morality thing.

  14. #4244
    BANNED Starter Set's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Gray morality is not inherently mature and black and white morality is not inherently childish. Recognizing when either applies is the mark of a true adult.
    Black and white morality is indeed childish in my opinion cause that's simply not how people work and how any sane person should see the world.

    We are a very sad bunch of hypocritical, lying apes maybe but it serves us well. We invented rules for ourselves but with always some ways to not follow them.

    Just for fun, let's take a look at that old of piece of paper called the bible, that never failing pillar of morality. So, Moise goes up the mountain and god, cause he's cool like that, gives him ten little rules to follow.

    Now, black and white right ? That's easy enough. No killing, no wanting to take stuff from other people and all the jazz right?

    Except that not even 100 pages later all the gang hits Jericho, killing and stealing other people's **** like they don't care lol. Here's your black and white morality code.

  15. #4245
    Astonishing Member batnbreakfast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starter Set View Post
    Black and white morality is indeed childish in my opinion cause that's simply not how people work and how any sane person should see the world.

    We are a very sad bunch of hypocritical, lying apes maybe but it serves us well. We invented rules for ourselves but with always some ways to not follow them.

    Just for fun, let's take a look at that old of piece of paper called the bible, that never failing pillar of morality. So, Moise goes up the mountain and god, cause he's cool like that, gives him ten little rules to follow.

    Now, black and white right ? That's easy enough. No killing, no wanting to take stuff from other people and all the jazz right?

    Except that not even 100 pages later all the gang hits Jericho, killing and stealing other people's **** like they don't care lol. Here's your black and white morality code.
    Yes, you should see the world in black and white and don't be like I do what I want and make excuses later.

    The only time I like grey is in GoT

    Aww, man. The bible is a fairy tale book not worthy of discussion. You can be a good person without following that mumbo jumbo.

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