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  1. #3661
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    The same people, that get apoplectic over some statues being pulled down, can't begin to understand why indigenous people are angry over the expropriation of their sacred land for commercial interests. The first nation in my region of the world has lived here for over 5,000 years (I did a paper on them for an archaeology course)--yet when some conservatives want to dig up ancient burial land for a parking lot, the natives are labelled as irrational in opposing them.
    This is like the bullshit cry of "It's Heritage not Racism" that the neo confederates bray. Sure, but your "heritage" is one of racism and slavery, so maybe it shouldn't be celebrated.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  2. #3662
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Explain???
    "Explain???..." as in "Hey. I've never really heard anything about that."?

    Or - Did you mean something else could stand a bit of detail?

  3. #3663
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    "Explain???..." as in "Hey. I've never really heard anything about that."?

    Or - Did you mean something else could stand a bit of detail?
    I am not sure what Basque part of the story you mean? I guess I have not heard what part of the story of Columbus had to do with the Basques in America.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  4. #3664
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    I am not sure what Basque part of the story you mean? I guess I have not heard what part of the story of Columbus had to do with the Basques in America.
    Got it.

    Man, there is a lot of the history that just falls by the wayside in the telling.

    It is impossible to overestimate the link between Basque shipbuilding and sailing in the conquest of the Americas. These activities positioned the Basques for a dominating role in the discovery and development of New World colonies. It begins with the journey of Christopher Columbus in 1492, with the Santa Maria, Niña, and Pinta. The Santa Maria was built in a Basque shipyard and owned by Juan de la Cosa, a Basque. In addition, nine Basque sailors were aboard the Santa Maria, six sailed on the Niña, and two were part of the crew on the Pinta.
    Which doesn't really even get into De La Cosa's later voyages exploring parts of the new world where how Europeans colonized them is an issue.

    There's also the possibility that there was a Basque involvement in Newfoundland.

    Just a lot of "Why Would Folks Leave Them Out Of Laying Blame Almost Entirely?..." when the Basque were a pretty central element of it taking place.

    Which sets aside a lot of the really "This Should Be More Common Historical Knowledge..." as far as what came after Columbus and the theory that Columbus could actually have been Basque himself(though that latter part isn't settled as far as I know...)

    There's a good bit of background in this piece -

    https://euskalkazeta.com/basques-in-...-1492-to-1592/

    Basques in the Americas 1492 to 1592

  5. #3665
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Oh, I see what you are referring to. My comment about Italian Americans did not have to do with the real history of Columbus, but rather his embrace by the Italian Americans as a symbol of their place in America. Which was mainly based on a false narrative. And also strange that yes, Columbus was Italian from Genoa, but his voyage had nothing to do with Italy, he sailed for Spain.
    But as you laid out here with additional info about the Basques and Columbus, the statues for him have little to do with history and taking them down will not remove history, in fact, it might lead to a better understanding of the facts.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  6. #3666
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    ...How this one, since I think I may be bending the rules a bit:

    Aquaman is the best “King Arthur” live action movie for anyone who wants human characterization mixed with their mythological fun.

    Even Excalibur, as great as it is, s more dealing with archetypes than people.
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  7. #3667
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    John Boorman's EXCALIBUR? When that movie came out--and I saw it--it was widely panned by the critics. My thought was--oh it's not that bad. It was an okay sort of movie--but not really faithful to Arthurian legend. And I can see why many turned on it for its ridiculous excesses. I thought it was consigned to the junkheap of history. Yet I see fans these days lauding the movie. I wonder how did it get rehabilitated in pop culture?
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  8. #3668
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    John Boorman's EXCALIBUR? When that movie came out--and I saw it--it was widely panned by the critics. My thought was--oh it's not that bad. It was an okay sort of movie--but not really faithful to Arthurian legend. And I can see why many turned on it for its ridiculous excesses. I thought it was consigned to the junkheap of history. Yet I see fans these days lauding the movie. I wonder how did it get rehabilitated in pop culture?
    Most other King Arthur films are worse - and Excalibur does have an excellent Merlin, perhaps one of the best. It also has quite the cast outside of him, similar to David Lynch's Dune. The plot may be thin, but the actors are good enough to make something watchable out of it because so many of them are top notch performers. Helen Mirren, Liam Neeson, and Patrick Stewart are all in Excalibur.

    The Clive Owen King Arthur is good from a historical fiction perspective, and I think Stellan Skarsgard is underrated as the villain. Personally I enjoy how he never raises his voice (with one exception) for the entirety of the film.

    But outside of those two we typically have musicals, low budget TV shows, really dated stuff, or schlock that doesn't capture either the story or the feel of the legends.
    Last edited by Gray Lensman; 10-19-2020 at 08:28 AM.
    "Theory: The Phoenix doesn't corrupt the characters, it corrupts the authors." Gambit, King of Thieves

  9. #3669
    The Undead One The Chou Lives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Oh, I see what you are referring to. My comment about Italian Americans did not have to do with the real history of Columbus, but rather his embrace by the Italian Americans as a symbol of their place in America. Which was mainly based on a false narrative. And also strange that yes, Columbus was Italian from Genoa, but his voyage had nothing to do with Italy, he sailed for Spain.
    But as you laid out here with additional info about the Basques and Columbus, the statues for him have little to do with history and taking them down will not remove history, in fact, it might lead to a better understanding of the facts.
    Yeah also Columbus commuted crimes against humanity, did jail time. Became a governor of a Caribbean. Island. Did such a bad job the island revolted and he tried to escape. His son was there too and a hurricane showed up. No survivors on that boat as if God punishes him directly.

  10. #3670
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    Most acts of violence happen because people can’t handle authority or strong willed people.

  11. #3671
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRay View Post
    Most acts of violence happen because people can’t handle authority or strong willed people.
    Um. Sure. All those Poles were just asking for it in 1939. Just like all the rape victims over the millennia.

  12. #3672
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Um. Sure. All those Poles were just asking for it in 1939. Just like all the rape victims over the millennia.
    What, you mean the Holocaust wasn't the Nazis' fault after all?

  13. #3673
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Um. Sure. All those Poles were just asking for it in 1939. Just like all the rape victims over the millennia.
    I said most, and honestly “violence” is pretty ambiguous. I was more so thinking about armed conflict/fist fights. Also, why did you leap to Poland here? In that example, the group in question would be the Nazis not the Poles, unless the Poles actually did attack first. Which to my knowledge they definitely didn’t. Also this is controversial opinions, really strange thread to be picking battles on.

  14. #3674
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRay View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Um. Sure. All those Poles were just asking for it in 1939. Just like all the rape victims over the millennia.
    I said most, and honestly “violence” is pretty ambiguous. I was more so thinking about armed conflict/fist fights. Also, why did you leap to Poland here? In that example, the group in question would be the Nazis not the Poles, unless the Poles actually did attack first. Which to my knowledge they definitely didn’t. Also this is controversial opinions, really strange thread to be picking battles on.
    The examples were extreme to the point of absurdity, and deliberately so (although the second less than the first). The point being, violence need not only be fired by insecurities rubbing up against assertiveness. Nothing brings out the worst in a bully like perceiving someone as a helpless victim.

    As for the thread, counterpoints are easily 1/2 it's content.

  15. #3675
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    The examples were extreme to the point of absurdity, and deliberately so (although the second less than the first). The point being, violence need not only be fired by insecurities rubbing up against assertiveness. Nothing brings out the worst in a bully like perceiving someone as a helpless victim.

    As for the thread, counterpoints are easily 1/2 it's content.
    I'd add that "authority" about the nazis and their European conquests could be construed as being the authority which set terms for Germany post WW1 and for the will of the Jewish people to live their own lives and have their differences from other groups. In a nutshell, violence could be the first refuge of the incompetent and the response for the incompetent not getting their way easily.

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