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  1. #3676
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    The examples were extreme to the point of absurdity, and deliberately so (although the second less than the first). The point being, violence need not only be fired by insecurities rubbing up against assertiveness. Nothing brings out the worst in a bully like perceiving someone as a helpless victim.

    As for the thread, counterpoints are easily 1/2 it's content.
    Hardly a good way to start off a conversation by using nonsense. “The worst in a bully”. What’s being discussed here is the bully’s initial motivation to become a bully in the first place, not the results of those motivations.

    If all of the “counterpoints” are presented the way you’re presenting yours, I’d try to refrain from using that model. If you want to present counterpoints sure go ahead, but especially in a thread about controversial opinions, ridicule and belittlement really have no place.

  2. #3677
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRay View Post
    Hardly a good way to start off a conversation by using nonsense. “The worst in a bully”. What’s being discussed here is the bully’s initial motivation to become a bully in the first place, not the results of those motivations.

    If all of the “counterpoints” are presented the way you’re presenting yours, I’d try to refrain from using that model. If you want to present counterpoints sure go ahead, but especially in a thread about controversial opinions, ridicule and belittlement really have no place.
    Challenging your opinion of violence's sources? Yes.

    Belittling? It's unfortunate you took it that way, which was not the intent. But sarcasm (lowest form of humor that it may be), is a frequent discussion tool around here

  3. #3678
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    Here’s one:

    It’s utter nonsense to argue that some works of art are more “artistic” and thus must be evaluated on some arbitrary curve where some frankly “less popular“ aspects are weighed as greater than other “more popular“ aspects.

    Most of the time someone rolls out that praise or defense for something that isn’t going to make any real splash in pop-culture but *is* going to sweep multiple awards away before sinking into obscurity or suffering critical dissonance, what they’re actually talking about is niche artwork.

    Genuinely good art can and *will* work on multiple levels with all sorts of people, and will ultimately have a greater impact than some deeply personal and demographically limited “artisté” type of artwork.

    So, to put it bluntly, something having more success with pop culture isn’t only equal to “true art” but usually superior on some level.

    And escapism should never be considered a knock against a film, book, or TV show‘s artistic value. You *can* make arguments about stories being heavily reliant on accepted precepts, audience desires, or unfortunate sociological elements... but that often applies to “award-worthy” art just as often; there’s a reason why a lot of major Best Picture winners aren’t watched by people who aren’t old white dudes, and just because they find it satisfying doesn’t mean it actually has any advantage over anybody else’s entertainment... and often, it’s can be just as trashy, but in a different way.

    (I though about this while arguing in my head about how The Last Jedi is in no way a more “artistic” movie than The Force Awakens, and how I think a lot of its praise and defenses are really more defending it as being a more niche film than it’s predecessor... with plenty of bias, just bias some people are more comfortable with.)
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  4. #3679
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Here’s one:

    It’s utter nonsense to argue that some works of art are more “artistic” and thus must be evaluated on some arbitrary curve where some frankly “less popular“ aspects are weighed as greater than other “more popular“ aspects.

    Most of the time someone rolls out that praise or defense for something that isn’t going to make any real splash in pop-culture but *is* going to sweep multiple awards away before sinking into obscurity or suffering critical dissonance, what they’re actually talking about is niche artwork.

    Genuinely good art can and *will* work on multiple levels with all sorts of people, and will ultimately have a greater impact than some deeply personal and demographically limited “artisté” type of artwork.

    So, to put it bluntly, something having more success with pop culture isn’t only equal to “true art” but usually superior on some level.

    And escapism should never be considered a knock against a film, book, or TV show‘s artistic value. You *can* make arguments about stories being heavily reliant on accepted precepts, audience desires, or unfortunate sociological elements... but that often applies to “award-worthy” art just as often; there’s a reason why a lot of major Best Picture winners aren’t watched by people who aren’t old white dudes, and just because they find it satisfying doesn’t mean it actually has any advantage over anybody else’s entertainment... and often, it’s can be just as trashy, but in a different way.

    (I though about this while arguing in my head about how The Last Jedi is in no way a more “artistic” movie than The Force Awakens, and how I think a lot of its praise and defenses are really more defending it as being a more niche film than it’s predecessor... with plenty of bias, just bias some people are more comfortable with.)
    Well said. You put me in mind of All About Eve. Gary Merrill pretty much quotes you in attacking the pretentions of The Theatre.

  5. #3680
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Belittling? It's unfortunate you took it that way, which was not the intent. But sarcasm (lowest form of humor that it may be), is a frequent discussion tool around here
    That’s quite an ineffective argument tool, probably why there are so many needless arguments on here. Sarcasm should be reserved for people you know well and have had conversations with before that have gone smoothly, hardly something you jump out of the gate with. It comes off as not taking the other person seriously before you’ve really talked to them and gotten their side. I use sarcasm as much as anybody, and we are talking about a serious thing here, I just wouldn’t use it before I know what the conversation is even about.

  6. #3681
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Challenging your opinion of violence's sources? Yes.

    Belittling? It's unfortunate you took it that way, which was not the intent. But sarcasm (lowest form of humor that it may be), is a frequent discussion tool around here
    I thought the lowest form of humor was the pun. I know a couple people who force puns as much as possible and conversations with them are a damn chore as they try to derail things by deliberately taking the wrong meaning at every opportunity.

    Sarcasm has the issue of primarily being a spoken form of humor - it doesn't translate to the written word very well unless that sarcasm is well established by the writer.
    "Theory: The Phoenix doesn't corrupt the characters, it corrupts the authors." Gambit, King of Thieves

  7. #3682
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    I thought the lowest form of humor was the pun. I know a couple people who force puns as much as possible and conversations with them are a damn chore as they try to derail things by deliberately taking the wrong meaning at every opportunity.

    Sarcasm has the issue of primarily being a spoken form of humor - it doesn't translate to the written word very well unless that sarcasm is well established by the writer.
    That is true, and I should be more careful in articulating it.

  8. #3683
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    I thought the lowest form of humor was the pun. I know a couple people who force puns as much as possible and conversations with them are a damn chore as they try to derail things by deliberately taking the wrong meaning at every opportunity.

    Sarcasm has the issue of primarily being a spoken form of humor - it doesn't translate to the written word very well unless that sarcasm is well established by the writer.
    Pun wars are built on trying to get your opponent to suffer from attrition and lack of material. They are truly affronts to almost everyone except those doing battle.

  9. #3684
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    "Allowing for more story opportunities" is a bullshit argument. There is no such thing as a choice that allows for infinite story opportunities and more often than not, people are using this argument to defend ideas that limited the storytelling potential rather than expand it.

    Escapism is not the only goal if fiction and this includes superheroes. If you're whining about a lack of escapism in everything, you are either not looking hard enough or just being entitled and obnoxious.

  10. #3685
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    I always find weird that some people pick the martial art they want to practice mainly on the basis of how effective in a real street fight it is supposed to be.

    I mean, come on, how many times in your life did you actually engage in a fight that would have required the use of a martial art in order to save yourself from a cruel trashing? Or just a simple, 1on1 fight? If the answer if often, then maybe your attitude is the problem here or then, you living in a real shitty neighborhood and you can just as well pack a gun. (for dissuasion, don't use it)

    Plus, know what? If you actually find yourself the target of some aggressive dude, odds are you are going to freeze, forget you ever did any Karate or whatever and just fight whatever way you can or run.

    Wanna do Aikido? Judo? Go for it. No, it's most likely never going to be of any use in a brawl or during a riot but it's fun, good for your health and it comes with a nice piece of healthy philosophy for your daily life.

  11. #3686
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    I studied Akido for a time, the good thing about it was avoiding fights was part of thew training, and also learning how to roll when you fall, which is good training beyond any fight.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  12. #3687
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    "Allowing for more story opportunities" is a bullshit argument. There is no such thing as a choice that allows for infinite story opportunities and more often than not, people are using this argument to defend ideas that limited the storytelling potential rather than expand it.

    Escapism is not the only goal if fiction and this includes superheroes. If you're whining about a lack of escapism in everything, you are either not looking hard enough or just being entitled and obnoxious.
    Context? Where was this used that upset you so you posted it in two separate threads?
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  13. #3688
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    "Allowing for more story opportunities" is a bullshit argument. There is no such thing as a choice that allows for infinite story opportunities and more often than not, people are using this argument to defend ideas that limited the storytelling potential rather than expand it.

    Escapism is not the only goal if fiction and this includes superheroes. If you're whining about a lack of escapism in everything, you are either not looking hard enough or just being entitled and obnoxious.
    I’m there with you on most of this.

    Every story decision is going to encourage to discourage other potential plot developments: a character getting married both encourages story opportunities in one direction (the struggles of married life, new levels of confidence between major characters, a greater chance for “spin-offspring“, newer twists to conflicts and struggles) and discourages and limits opportunities in another direction (fewer love interest possibilities, little purpose in a “will they or won’t they” story because they have, etc.)

    If anything, comics have demonstrated just how flexible and changing the differences between serialized and episodic fiction are; for every time someone has tried to enforce a more “free” marital status for a character, they’ve also instituted a status quo that can become just as stagnant as the one they fear marriage would bring.

    I would also agree that escapism is not a necessary element of fiction and art... but I would also argue that if you handle certain properties, you can’t whine that people seems to want escapism in it. If escapism isn’t the main reason you right fiction, maybe avoid Superman and Star Wars.

    ...Also, escapism isn’t just about happiness and joy; there’s plenty of morose “angst escapism.” Some people enjoy watching other character suffer in a manner they can vicariously lose themselves in.
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  14. #3689
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Context? Where was this used that upset you so you posted it in two separate threads?
    Tbh, I just wasn't sure which thread to post it in so I did both. Looking back, it wasn't necessary.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 11-02-2020 at 06:54 PM.

  15. #3690
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Tbh, I just wasn't sure which thread to post it in so I did both. Looking back, it wasn't necessary.
    Okay, but still not sure what you mean. Who said "more story opportunities" that got you pissed?
    Was this in comics? Movies? Gaming?
    Last edited by Kirby101; 11-02-2020 at 09:13 PM.
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