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  1. #751
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madam-Shogun-Assassin View Post
    As a woman i'm glad there's a reckoning when it comes to sexual assault/harassment, but a part of me is nervous about this movement going off a cliff, or a slippery slope. Hurt, oppressed people can become bitterly vindictive when gaining power. Probably why white people are so terrified of minorities getting into high positions of political power.
    they should be terrified

    they fear being treated like they have treated minorities all these years

    I say that as a black man, who was sexually assaulted while serving in the USN

  2. #752
    Amazing Member Adam Allen's Avatar
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    Hurt people can become bitter and vindictive, but not all do. I think it's more common that people who have been truly wronged are less likely to inflict that same injury on someone else ... because they actually get why it's wrong. Mostly, nobody (healthy) really wants to become a monster.
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  3. #753
    For honor... Madam-Shogun-Assassin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Allen View Post
    Hurt people can become bitter and vindictive, but not all do.
    Of course, but i'm still worried about a kinda sex panic, and vindictive witch-hunt happening. I also don't think every person accused of sexual misconduct should get the equivalent of a death penalty. I use to believe that these cases needs a zero tolerance policy across the board. But i'm not so sure anymore. Also i fear the possibility that one false accusation could torpedo the #MeToo moment
    Last edited by Madam-Shogun-Assassin; 11-21-2017 at 12:16 PM.

  4. #754
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madam-Shogun-Assassin View Post
    Of course, but i'm still worried about a kinda sex panic, and vindictive witch-hunt happening. I also don't think every person accused of sexual misconduct should get the equivalent of a death penalty. I use to believe that these cases needs a zero tolerance policy across the board. But i'm not so sure anymore. Also i fear the possibility that one false accusation could torpedo the #MeToo moment
    I think that probably the big fear is that a few heads will roll now, but after a year or two things will go back to "normal".

  5. #755
    Amazing Member Adam Allen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madam-Shogun-Assassin View Post
    Of course, but i'm still worried about a kinda sex panic, and vindictive witch-hunt happening. I also don't think every person accused of sexual misconduct should get the equivalent of a death penalty. I use to believe that these cases needs a zero tolerance policy across the board. But i'm not so sure anymore. Also i fear the possibility that one false accusation could torpedo the #MeToo moment
    Yeah, I think I get what you mean. Personally, I think that acting as if every case is the same, and as if every accused person should be vilified and rebuked in exactly the same way ... that would basically be the witch-hunt, and would ultimately be counter-productive. I think if we go that direction, we do eventually get some kind of backlash, or just at least a kind of outrage burn-out, where the general opinion comes to see any accusation as some kind of over-reaction, or any concerns as unreasonable and knee-jerk.

    Like, if we consider Harvey Weinstein, and Roy Moore, and Louis CK, Bill Cosby, Al Franken, and John Lasseter ... all accused, but all different in what they did or are accused of doing. Cosby really did the things he is accused of, and they are criminal in addition to be immoral, even if he can't be prosecuted for them. He's a rapist, and completely deserves being vilified; really, deserving of every negative consequence, particularly because he got away with it for as long as he did. Weinstein is only marginally better; again, there may not be any legal grounds for prosecuting his harassment, but using your power and influence to demand sex, and professionally punishing anyone who resists -- yeah, he shouldn't be able to continue in his profession, as he undoubtedly will. I feel like there should be legal repercussions for Roy Moore; even if there are not, he certainly should not be a viable political candidate.

    But, Louis CK ... well, one thing I feel like separates him from Cosby, Weinstein, and Moore is that he hasn't just tried to equivocate and deny the things he was accused of. Exactly how much difference that should make, I cannot say, but I feel like it should make some difference. I also think it should make some difference that he was not an adult stalking children, he was not drugging people to bypass consent, and he wasn't using professional or financial power to coerce or retaliate. I think exactly how much he needs to be vilified should depend on how he deals with things, going forward. I really know little about John Lasseter, or the full picture of his professional misbehavior ... but, if there is no more than what I have gleaned from the little I've read, I would again say that a lot would depend on how he deals, going forward. Being over-friendly and having poor respect for others' physical boundaries ... if that is all it is, and there is no actual groping or attempt to coerce sex in a professional setting ... well, he does deserve for there to be repercussions, but if he uses his power and influence to make a difference both in his own professional sphere and in the broader social atmosphere, I think the degree to which he should be vilified could be greatly mitigated.

    Then, there's Al Franken. If there is no more to come out against him than the accusations already made ... well yeah, I think there should be an ocean of difference between what the repercussions for him should be, versus a Cosby or Moore or Weinstein. Also depending, of course, on how he deals with it all, going forward.
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  6. #756
    Astonishing Member Darkspellmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    We are?

    I'm much more terrified of the narcissistic pussy grabber in chief than I ever was of Obama.
    I think it has more to do with the jerks out there that think that if someone who is a minority gains power they will purposefully treat them as they have treated others. Thus if you are someone that has been nice, then probably you have nothing to worry about. Someone like Richard Spencer on the other hand, would feel a lot of fear about it.

    On the other hand, no matter what race, religion or nationality, let's be honest here, there are always going to be jerks and morons that are around, and there's not much one can do about that.

    In regard to the treating others based on what they did, I think there has to be a way to prove something at least crediable, or else we wind up having innocent people accused and hurt by the back lash. That is not to say that a person should not be questioned if someone says they did something to a victim, nor that the victim should be labeled liar until proven truthful, rather that each case needs to be looked at carefully.

    For example, the Spacey situation. You had Anthony Rapp come out and discuss this, and great, this lead to other actors and people that worked with Spacey to admit that he was doing some rather uncomfortable things to them, and touching them in ways that they felt were skeevey. It's important to note that there was a pattern here and that pattern was shown to happen over a period of time, from a lot of different people, in a lot of different ways.

    On the other hand you have Al Franken, and George Takei where it's only one person. There is no pattern here. That's not to say they are innocent, that is to say that we have to see more in regard to others that were there to at the very least say, "Hey there is an issue here." or at least an investigation into what happened, as Al said.

    What I don't want to see happen is what happened to Kevin Clash. For those who don't know, Kevin was the reformer of Elmo, Cliff, and several other muppets. After he came out as gay, a younger man claimed he assaulted him. This lead to a suit, and rather then have Sesame Street get screwed over because of this, Kevin stepped away from the company (they were willing to go to bat for him too). Turned out the young man had been making it up to get attention and money and was actually upset that Kevin had rejected him when the two had met a few years before because Kevin felt he was too young for him to have a relationship with.

    I just hate the idea that anyone would use this good thing to get back at an ex or something. That's what I'm worried about.
    Last edited by Darkspellmaster; 11-22-2017 at 02:04 AM.

  7. #757
    Amazing Member Adam Allen's Avatar
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    Yeah, I worry about false accusations, too. I may be wrong, but I feel like a part of how that worry can be dealt with is to work on having a more nuanced response. That is not a simple thing, in part because of the really kind of all-or-nothing way our justice system unfortunately works. What I mean is, we don't really have a system that is concerned with rehabilitation at all. Our system is really all about punishment. We think of it like we have criminals, and the rest of us. We have guilty and innocent, and the guilty are criminals. And if you are a criminal, we have little sympathy for you. You know, what is the worst aspect, the thing we think will be the scariest and most punishing aspect of a prison sentence? It's how a prisoner will be abused by other prisoners, right? Well, we wouldn't be okay with that, as a society, if we had any real regard for a prisoner, or a "criminal" as a human being. We accept it, and too often celebrate it ... if you talk about a rapist or a child molester going to prison, guaranteed some will say how they are happy that person will likely get raped in prison, himself. Or, if not happy, they may say it's somehow "justice".

    It's a pretty twisted concept of justice, though. And I think we could likely look at accusations more clearly, if we could move beyond such a binary way of thinking, when it comes to the alleged perpetrators. Because -- I guess I just mean, I think it's a harder proposition, when our only two possible categories are "inhuman monster" and "faultless innocent". Most of the accused likely are not either, just because most of humanity is not either.

    Having said this ... yeah, "did you drug someone to sexually assault them while they were unable to resist" really is a binary option. Likewise, "did you use violence to force someone" is, too. For that matter, "did you grab whatever body part" isn't super complicated, either. But, difficult though it may be, I'm still saying, " ... then you are evil and irredeemable" needs to be -- well, either not one of the responses, or at least only one of many. Because, so long as it's that or, "... then you're all good," we'll still have this very great and understandable worry about making that call incorrectly. Thinking someone evil or a monster when they're not is a very grave mistake to make. Thinking they are a person -- who, I guess, did something very wrong? -- when they didn't ... you know, still a mistake ... not as bad, though?
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  8. #758
    You guessed it mr_crisp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madam-Shogun-Assassin View Post
    As a woman i'm glad there's a reckoning when it comes to sexual assault/harassment, but a part of me is nervous about this movement going off a cliff, or a slippery slope. Hurt, oppressed people can become bitterly vindictive when gaining power. Probably why white people are so terrified of minorities getting into high positions of political power.
    And I am waiting for the day when the pendulum swings the other way and woman are starting to be accused of sexual harassment.
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  9. #759
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_crisp View Post
    And I am waiting for the day when the pendulum swings the other way and woman are starting to be accused of sexual harassment.
    Maybe it'll happen when there's been 45 consecutive female US presidents?

  10. #760
    Astonishing Member mojotastic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    Maybe it'll happen when there's been 45 consecutive female US presidents?
    Kinda of agree, i dont know what are the societial circumstances that are need it to have an increase in molestation from women to men but today we dont have them.

  11. #761
    Astonishing Member Ken Ashcroft's Avatar
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    I wonder if Michael Jackson would have been acquitted if the trial was happening today?

  12. #762
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Ashcroft View Post
    I wonder if Michael Jackson would have been acquitted if the trial was happening today?
    Why not. Alabama is about to elect a child molester as Senator.
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  13. #763
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Why not. Alabama is about to elect a child molester as Senator.
    I didn't know Michael Jackson was tried in Alabama.

  14. #764
    DARKSEID LAUGHS... Crazy Diamond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Ashcroft View Post
    I wonder if Michael Jackson would have been acquitted if the trial was happening today?
    Depends on which accuser. It came out that the first accuser was coached to lie by his father because he wanted to get back at Jackson for refusing to make a movie with him. The other two cases are sketchier though.

  15. #765
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    I had forgotten Elliot Rodger's ( mass shooter from a couple of years ago) name until last night when it came up in of all places a review for an upcoming Marvel movie trailer, but uh...why is his Youtube page still up? I would have thought it would have been taken down by now.

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