The Spectre Appreciation Thread

[The Beast Of Yucca Flats]

And speaking of Scooby-Doo, . . .

...I literally only remembered this after I typed that.

[Savage Savant]

Re: the poo-poohing of the infinitely powerful/'Wrath Of God' notion- sorry, but the The Spectre (as a solo feature; no JLA/JSA showings), is a horror concept through and through. And 'Wrath Of God, etc.' as a take just plain makes for inherently better, more compelling horror. But 'superhero ghost' as a premise? Not so much. In practice, it seems like it'd ultimately slip into something akin to 'less fun Scooby Doo.'

I recall a chat with Steve Bissette a long time ago where he said he felt you really need a feeling of helplessness somewhere to do horror violence properly (as opposed to the inherent power-fantasy of superhero-related violence). And some poor wretch who gets all up in the shit of the literal Wrath Of God seems like a scenario that would fit the bill...

You must not have read Fleischer's run on the character then. That's cool, I respect your opinion and all but I fail to see what makes the "Wrath of God" superior to the Pre-Crisis version. Lemme be clear, I don't hate any version of the character at all, Spectre is my favorite superhero (at least the Pre-Crisis interpretation though I can appreciate the Post-Crisis Wrath of God version as well). That said, everytime I hear someone say the Post-Crisis version is the best I never read any articulated and detailed explanations, it's just always (frothing at the mouth) "rah rah rah Wrath of God/Ostrander incarnation is the best rah rah rah".

I actually created a thread (found here: http://community.comicbookresources....-was-a-mistake) that actually contained a very clear, articulated parsimonious explanation as to what made the Pre-Crisis Spectre great and how the Wrath of God version may have been good from a story-telling perspective, but it had quite a few holes to say the least. Most of the responses I received in that thread were of the "rah rah rah" variety & not once was one well articulated or provided any solid rebuttals.

Again, I'm not belittling any version of the character nor will I regress to insults or ad hominems, I enjoyed the Ostrander run for what it was & I actually wanna read Doug Moench's run (shocking to anyone who believes I hate the Post-Crisis version!). However, I've just yet to see someone explain in detail why the Post-Crisis version is the definitive version when I've covered/addressed all aspects of the character in my thread about this discussion.

*If this discussion can't be had in this thread (which I don't see why it can't as most other appreciation threads have similar discussions) you & anyone else interested can either bump my old thread or PM me if you wish.

[victorxd1999]

You must not have read Fleischer's run on the character then. That's cool, I respect your opinion and all but I fail to see what makes the "Wrath of God" superior to the Pre-Crisis version. Lemme be clear, I don't hate any version of the character at all, Spectre is my favorite superhero (at least the Pre-Crisis interpretation though I can appreciate the Post-Crisis Wrath of God version as well). That said, everytime I hear someone say the Post-Crisis version is the best I never read any articulated and detailed explanations, it's just always (frothing at the mouth) "rah rah rah Wrath of God/Ostrander incarnation is the best rah rah rah".

I actually created a thread (found here: http://community.comicbookresources....-was-a-mistake) that actually contained a very clear, articulated parsimonious explanation as to what made the Pre-Crisis Spectre great and how the Wrath of God version may have been good from a story-telling perspective, but it had quite a few holes to say the least. Most of the responses I received in that thread were of the "rah rah rah" variety & not once was one well articulated or provided any solid rebuttals.

Again, I'm not belittling any version of the character nor will I regress to insults or ad hominems, I enjoyed the Ostrander run for what it was & I actually wanna read Doug Moench's run (shocking to anyone who believes I hate the Post-Crisis version!). However, I've just yet to see someone explain in detail why the Post-Crisis version is the definitive version when I've covered/addressed all aspects of the character in my thread about this discussion.

*If this discussion can't be had in this thread (which I don't see why it can't as most other appreciation threads have similar discussions) you & anyone else interested can either bump my old thread or PM me if you wish.

I answered in your original thread and read the entire thing and the most people who disagreed used the words "generic" and "average" a lot, which would also be my quarrel. Also, The wrath of God version makes for some great psychological and spiritual challenges for Corrigan, turning him in a very interesting and deep character. That's always been his appeal to me. Otherwise I could as well read a Deadman comic or something similar. The Wrath of God concept is a very unique concept in the comic world, whereas the spirit of a dead guy is intriguing, but has been done before.

[Old Man Ollie 1962]

I answered in your original thread and read the entire thing and the most people who disagreed used the words "generic" and "average" a lot, which would also be my quarrel. Also, The wrath of God version makes for some great psychological and spiritual challenges for Corrigan, turning him in a very interesting and deep character. That's always been his appeal to me. Otherwise I could as well read a Deadman comic or something similar. The Wrath of God concept is a very unique concept in the comic world, whereas the spirit of a dead guy is intriguing, but has been done before.

Choose your sinners and sins based on what criterion? Judeo-Christian Bible? Go that route and Spectre could arguably start zapping any special interest group or folks who don't measure up to God's standards. As crazy as that sounds, the Wrath of God concept could open that door. And other doors. Evil, wickedness covers a multitude of sins. What if some fundamentalist Bible-thumping comic loving groupie or group start a campaign to take the Sprit of Vengence/Wrath of God down that path? Tell me it couldn't happen. I think DC took that and other theological slippery slopes into consideration when they steered the big grumpy, ghost away from the Wrath of God concept.

[victorxd1999]

Choose your sinners and sins based on what criterion? Judeo-Christian Bible? Go that route and Spectre could arguably start zapping any special interest group or folks who don't measure up to God's standards. As crazy as that sounds, the Wrath of God concept could open that door. And other doors. Evil, wickedness covers a multitude of sins. What if some fundamentalist Bible-thumping comic loving groupie or group start a campaign to take the Sprit of Vengence/Wrath of God down that path? Tell me it couldn't happen. I think DC took that and other theological slippery slopes into consideration when they steered the big grumpy, ghost away from the Wrath of God concept.

Steering away from a concept because you're scared of fundamentalists seems a bit wrong to me. The god in Dc comics isn't definitely the Christian version of god and Corrigan has a sort of control over Spectre's manner of judgement. I think not following through with a promising concept like this because you're afraid of religious fundamentalism isn't something Dc should in give to. Let the haters whine, there's nothing inherently wrong or offensive about the concept. Now, if it's better than the original version, that's a whole different question.

[Old Man Ollie 1962]

Steering away from a concept because you're scared of fundamentalists seems a bit wrong to me. The god in Dc comics isn't definitely the Christian version of god and Corrigan has a sort of control over Spectre's manner of judgement. I think not following through with a promising concept like this because you're afraid of religious fundamentalism isn't something Dc should in give to. Let the haters whine, there's nothing inherently wrong or offensive about the concept. Now, if it's better than the original version, that's a whole different question.

It's a slippery slope. I don't know.

[victorxd1999]

Recently finished CoIE and loved the big role the Spectre had. Perez's Spectre looks nice, but could have been a bit flashier.

[Savage Savant]

I answered in your original thread and read the entire thing and the most people who disagreed used the words "generic" and "average" a lot, which would also be my quarrel. Also, The wrath of God version makes for some great psychological and spiritual challenges for Corrigan, turning him in a very interesting and deep character. That's always been his appeal to me. Otherwise I could as well read a Deadman comic or something similar. The Wrath of God concept is a very unique concept in the comic world, whereas the spirit of a dead guy is intriguing, but has been done before.

Yeah that was kinda my point, it's one thing to just say something is "generic" & "average" but it's another to justify why you'd feel that way (which as I said, no one in that thread did to the degree I explained my stance on the character). And regarding the whole "spirit of a dead guy" concept being done before, people seem to forget that the Spectre actually predates Deadman, Ghost Rider & Spawn. The character was the first ghost/dead/spirit superhero, so since he was the first of his kind most people are more familiar with the aforementioned characters & the Pre-Crisis version seems like a retread of that concept when it was Spectre who started it all.

Also regarding the whole psychological & spiritual challenges, I mentioned in that thread that you could discuss metaphysics with the character without utilizing religion at all. The writer could use Substance Dualism metaphysics to explain how the Spectre operates & the nature of his powers & abilities and things of that nature. That would be much easier to write than the wrath of god version IMO. Plus with the wrath of god, it makes Corrigan reliant on something external from him instead of the powers being apart of his spirit/ghost. I'm of the opinion that most fans prefer characters whose powers are actually apart of their body/physiology (in this case spirit). As another poster mentioned, if Jim Corrigan isn't in the picture, the character loses the vast majority of his appeal (I've always envisioned Corrigan as pretty much like Dirty Harry). Plus in the original version, there were other ghosts/spirits who had the exact same abilities as Spectre too.

Anyway I don't hate any version of the character I respect yours & other's preference for the character. I'm just stating my case regarding how I perceive the character. I honestly believe if DC marketed Spectre properly, he could become as popular (or moreso) than Doctor Strange. It's not like the character doesn't predate Strange or participated in practically the same type of adventures Strange was in before his creation or anything.

[deadboy80]

I have loved the Spectre since the 90's series. It had great writing and beautiful art. It, for me encompassed what/who the Spectre/Corrigan really is. I still have hanging on my wall a glow in the dark poster of the Spectre. Mandrake really made him badass!!!

[Captain Smith]

I wonder (and maybe I missed it) why a classic Spectre didn't show up in Convergence? All things seem to have existed. Parallax showed up at full power and simply zapped the big mouth ruler of the Universe, Deimos. So where was Spectre?

[Trey Strain]

The version nobody talks about is the take by J.M. DeMatteis. I think making Hal Jordan the Spectre was just a bad idea and that nobody could have made the comic work, but the direction and the stories just weren't right either. The art was pretty good though.

[Outside_85]

The version nobody talks about is the take by J.M. DeMatteis. I think making Hal Jordan the Spectre was just a bad idea and that nobody could have made the comic work, but the direction and the stories just weren't right either. The art was pretty good though.

Though, it did work, as a redemption story... what didn't was that Hal was allowed to basically pervert the Spectre into something it wasn't.

[Trey Strain]

Though, it did work, as a redemption story... what didn't was that Hal was allowed to basically pervert the Spectre into something it wasn't.

Ir seemed that DeMatteis had an interest in Eastern religions and maybe tried to incorporate some of those ideas into the comic. It became touchy-feely and too far removed from the depiction of the Spectre as a scary character who occupies a scary niche in the DCU. I don't think any backdrop of religion works in this context. The Spectre is a spook, the ghost of Jim Corrigan. That's all you need right there.

The Spectre is what Batman wants to be but isn't. I think that's the right attitude to take about him.

[Outside_85]

Ir seemed that DeMatteis had an interest in Eastern religions and maybe tried to incorporate some of those ideas into the comic. It became touchy-feely and too far removed from the depiction of the Spectre as a scary character who occupies a scary niche in the DCU. I don't think any backdrop of religion works in this context. The Spectre is a spook. That's all you need right there.

Well, thats the inherent problem when Johns boldly had Hal redefine the Spectre's mission at the end of Day of Judgement, which just seemed very odd to me that he was able and allowed to do so. And as I was saying; it all worked as a story except that it was part of the Spectre that was altered to make it work.
Religion worked just fine in the Ostrander series, which also gave us the first host; a hindu. What that series did was to largely manage to balance the Spectre's presence as God's Wrath, without taking a dump on every other religion by somehow claiming they weren't real.

But you are otherwise right, almost, the Spectre is an avenging spook and is scary... I disagree that it has anything to do with Corrigan, because it's for very long been established the Spectre is a separate entity and is both willing and able to influence it's host:

[vartox]

The version nobody talks about is the take by J.M. DeMatteis. I think making Hal Jordan the Spectre was just a bad idea and that nobody could have made the comic work, but the direction and the stories just weren't right either. The art was pretty good though.

I think DeMatteis's Spectre is really underrated, I loved his work on it and I thought it was a great idea for post-Parallax Hal Jordan. It was an unusual direction and not stories typical to Hal OR the Spectre but that's part of why I liked it so much.

I think of Corrigan as THE Spectre but I adore Hal's five year tenure very much.