Morrison's BATMAN, INC

[charliehustle415]

I custom bound Morrison's run and indeed included Final Crisis (the edition tpb) after RIP and before B&R. Final Crisis is part of the Batman run simply because Morrison made it clear Late Rites (Batman #682-683) are part of Final Crisis. 701-702 aren't meant to read right after RIP IMHO, so you need to read of Batman's sanction right after RIP and only Final Crisis itself can deliver that.

And, as much as some won't want to jump between trades, I think B&R, Time and the Batman, and ROBW are meant to be read interleaved together like Chris Burnham had in his Morrison reading order. T hedge I know disagrees. But I think it's clear enough.

Dude! Can you post some pictures, I would love to see that

[JBatmanFan05]

Dude! Can you post some pictures, I would love to see that

I will try, but it may take me some days (or a week).

[K. Jones]

I'm glad this topic was created, because I actually have a few questions about this run after my recent re-read, this being one of them. When exactly does Bruce have the vision of the bad future with Damian Batman? Is it shown in the 52 series when he goes into the caves with the Ten Eyed Men? Also, he guesses that Talia is trying to bring this future about by putting Damian with him, but how would she know about it? Turns out to be wrong because of the Heretic I guess, but I'm not sure Bruce would think Talia knows about it if he hasn't told anyone about his visions. Also, what does Dr. Hurt have to do with the bad future? I'm assuming that's him telling the President to nuke Gotham.

Some other questions that you guys can hopefully answer for me:

- Are we meant to know how the first Knight and those other heroes imprisoned Dr. Dedalus? It's always been sort of vague. I'm also guessing it must have taken place after Kathy's supposed death, because Netz is in charge of Spyral in the flashbacks but Kathy is clearly in charge in the present.
- So the fake Dr. Dedalus was the man in charge of the facility before Otto screwed his brain up and escaped right? How does Batman figure out that it wasn't the real one? And why does he kill the Leviathan agent posing as a scientist if the real Dedalus is working for Leviathan anyway?
- The Hood is working for T.H.E.Y to go undercover in Batman INC, and he is about to be killed by T.H.E.Y's Matron when it is revealed the Matron is really working for Spyral. But in vol. 2, the Hood is suddenly working for Spyral and Kathy. Was he always allied with them, or did Kathy and the Matron recruit him in between volumes?

I'm really stoked to answer this because it helps me crystallize something I've been circling for a long time.

Bruce has the vision in the cave in Nanda Parbat. But he then has it again and again. It's a vision of a dark future, which I'll call 666 for ease. He also believes that Talia sending Damian to be with him is a step toward 666, which we sort of get validated in Batman Incorporated II 5, when Damian cries out "MOTHER!" or whatever in the 666 flashforward issue of Inc.

The Hyper-Adapter is the bat-shaped shadow that Bruce keeps exorcising from himself with arcane rituals. The Ten-Eyed Surgeons cut it out, and then he removes it as well in Nanda Parbat. These experiences, near-death experiences meant to exorcise demons, are places where he's seeing visions and places where explicitly the "Symbolic" bat-shadow flying away from Bruce are actually literal - as it's Apokoliptian tech and so it's the symbolic made very, very literal. Barbatos has been possessing Bruce all along on his timeline, having latched onto him in his natural timeline during the scene where he shall become a bat, and looks into the eyes of the bat in the study and realizes now that that's when Darkseid got in, so to speak. Barbatos's timeline itself is trickier, since it criss-crosses Bruce's timeline a couple different times and ways and in its second time cycle it is also confused and possesses Doctor Hurt, too, and then runs backwards. But hey, it's a time-traveling curse, right?

Anyway ... my point is validation of the notion that Talia, particularly post-Infinite Crisis Talia, who has been damaged bad by Nyssa in her recent past and dallied with the evil forces of the DCU, is also under possession of the Hyper-Adapter (as if her wearing the Thomas Wayne bat mask and cape over a Bob Kane red unitard weren't proof enough).

Because each time he has a vision he's coming into contact with the Adapter, and it's a psychic/possession connection, so he's actually seeing bits of its back-and-forth FF/RW timeline, glimpses of things that are out of sync, including the affectation of Talia. (I mean, she's effectively the first out-of-continuity thing it retcons as a weapon against Bruce, too, as Damian coming into play and Son of the Demon are the first big "your lapses in continuity are your downfall" attack.) His glimpses of 666 are literal glimpses into the memory-banks of a hyper-curse that exists in all sorts of interesting points on the timeline. It's also fun just because it's an unreliable narrator, to an extent, and we see three different 666 flashforwards play out, all of which suggest different Devils plaguing Batman, but all of them bedevil him in the present day anyway, so it proves not to be that unreliable. (And hey, they're all the Empty Hand, anyway, when you get right down to it.)

[Kingcrimsonprog]

I'm really stoked to answer this because it helps me crystallize something I've been circling for a long time.

Bruce has the vision in the cave in Nanda Parbat. But he then has it again and again. It's a vision of a dark future, which I'll call 666 for ease. He also believes that Talia sending Damian to be with him is a step toward 666, which we sort of get validated in Batman Incorporated II 5, when Damian cries out "MOTHER!" or whatever in the 666 flashforward issue of Inc.

The Hyper-Adapter is the bat-shaped shadow that Bruce keeps exorcising from himself with arcane rituals. The Ten-Eyed Surgeons cut it out, and then he removes it as well in Nanda Parbat. These experiences, near-death experiences meant to exorcise demons, are places where he's seeing visions and places where explicitly the "Symbolic" bat-shadow flying away from Bruce are actually literal - as it's Apokoliptian tech and so it's the symbolic made very, very literal. Barbatos has been possessing Bruce all along on his timeline, having latched onto him in his natural timeline during the scene where he shall become a bat, and looks into the eyes of the bat in the study and realizes now that that's when Darkseid got in, so to speak. Barbatos's timeline itself is trickier, since it criss-crosses Bruce's timeline a couple different times and ways and in its second time cycle it is also confused and possesses Doctor Hurt, too, and then runs backwards. But hey, it's a time-traveling curse, right?

Anyway ... my point is validation of the notion that Talia, particularly post-Infinite Crisis Talia, who has been damaged bad by Nyssa in her recent past and dallied with the evil forces of the DCU, is also under possession of the Hyper-Adapter (as if her wearing the Thomas Wayne bat mask and cape over a Bob Kane red unitard weren't proof enough).

Because each time he has a vision he's coming into contact with the Adapter, and it's a psychic/possession connection, so he's actually seeing bits of its back-and-forth FF/RW timeline, glimpses of things that are out of sync, including the affectation of Talia. (I mean, she's effectively the first out-of-continuity thing it retcons as a weapon against Bruce, too, as Damian coming into play and Son of the Demon are the first big "your lapses in continuity are your downfall" attack.) His glimpses of 666 are literal glimpses into the memory-banks of a hyper-curse that exists in all sorts of interesting points on the timeline. It's also fun just because it's an unreliable narrator, to an extent, and we see three different 666 flashforwards play out, all of which suggest different Devils plaguing Batman, but all of them bedevil him in the present day anyway, so it proves not to be that unreliable. (And hey, they're all the Empty Hand, anyway, when you get right down to it.)

Wow, that's awesome, I hope its true, I never picked up on this before but if its true it would make everything so much cooler than it already is.

[JBatmanFan05]

I'm not sure that Hyper Adapter theory is accurate, but what's great about Morrison's run is that it keeps you wondering if you're missing this or that unifying aspect or whatever. The run never closes its pages, and it gnaws at your mind afterward, you can think about it from so many different directions.

[Forever Knight]

So if Damian killed Otto Netz in Inc's Leviathan Strikes then how the hell is he alive again in Grayson #13-14?

[t hedge coke]

So if Damian killed Otto Netz in Inc's Leviathan Strikes then how the hell is he alive again in Grayson #13-14?

I imagine future issues of Grayson will let us know. Though, there are several outs that are easy enough, from lazarus pits to it-was-an-impersonator.

[HsssH]

Couldn't he transported his mind into the machine before he got killed by Damian?

[Metamorphosis]

To the OP,

I remember liking Inc a lot when the first volume was coming out. Then the Nu52 thing happened and the second volume just became a blur. They were some of the last monthly comics I ever bought.

I do have really fond memories of reading the Leviathan one-shot that closed out Inc Vol 1. But there really needs to be some Morrison Batman collections, it was such a sprawling run.

For me, his best work on Batman was the Black Glove, RIP and Dickbats and Robin. Still can't believe how much he made me appreciate Damien's character over time.

[DamianThomas]

I pretty much found it to be the weakest of the Batman titles when it was still coming out.

[t hedge coke]

I pretty much found it to be the weakest of the Batman titles when it was still coming out.

What was it that didn't come together, do you feel? Where was it weak(est) in comparison to the others?

I'm honestly curious, since it's probably the last time a new-release bat-title was getting me excited and I still think it was one of the more interestingly written and arranged comics of the last ten years, with some of the best art in comics. But, I understand not everyone has to find Morrison super-fun, or think, as I do, that Chris Burnham is a genuine genius artist.

[HsssH]

Wasn't Batman by Finch coming out at the same time? Hard to imagine that being better.

[Noxex]

I'm really stoked to answer this because it helps me crystallize something I've been circling for a long time.

Bruce has the vision in the cave in Nanda Parbat. But he then has it again and again. It's a vision of a dark future, which I'll call 666 for ease. He also believes that Talia sending Damian to be with him is a step toward 666, which we sort of get validated in Batman Incorporated II 5, when Damian cries out "MOTHER!" or whatever in the 666 flashforward issue of Inc.

The Hyper-Adapter is the bat-shaped shadow that Bruce keeps exorcising from himself with arcane rituals. The Ten-Eyed Surgeons cut it out, and then he removes it as well in Nanda Parbat. These experiences, near-death experiences meant to exorcise demons, are places where he's seeing visions and places where explicitly the "Symbolic" bat-shadow flying away from Bruce are actually literal - as it's Apokoliptian tech and so it's the symbolic made very, very literal. Barbatos has been possessing Bruce all along on his timeline, having latched onto him in his natural timeline during the scene where he shall become a bat, and looks into the eyes of the bat in the study and realizes now that that's when Darkseid got in, so to speak. Barbatos's timeline itself is trickier, since it criss-crosses Bruce's timeline a couple different times and ways and in its second time cycle it is also confused and possesses Doctor Hurt, too, and then runs backwards. But hey, it's a time-traveling curse, right?

Anyway ... my point is validation of the notion that Talia, particularly post-Infinite Crisis Talia, who has been damaged bad by Nyssa in her recent past and dallied with the evil forces of the DCU, is also under possession of the Hyper-Adapter (as if her wearing the Thomas Wayne bat mask and cape over a Bob Kane red unitard weren't proof enough).

Because each time he has a vision he's coming into contact with the Adapter, and it's a psychic/possession connection, so he's actually seeing bits of its back-and-forth FF/RW timeline, glimpses of things that are out of sync, including the affectation of Talia. (I mean, she's effectively the first out-of-continuity thing it retcons as a weapon against Bruce, too, as Damian coming into play and Son of the Demon are the first big "your lapses in continuity are your downfall" attack.) His glimpses of 666 are literal glimpses into the memory-banks of a hyper-curse that exists in all sorts of interesting points on the timeline. It's also fun just because it's an unreliable narrator, to an extent, and we see three different 666 flashforwards play out, all of which suggest different Devils plaguing Batman, but all of them bedevil him in the present day anyway, so it proves not to be that unreliable. (And hey, they're all the Empty Hand, anyway, when you get right down to it.)

I'm not sure its totally supported by the text, but I love the part about Talia being possessed by the hyper adapter. The reason I think that may not be the intent is that robw 6 is pretty explicite about the actions it takes, and the stuff about continuity being used against Batman is more from interviews than the actual story. But despite that, I think I can almost buy into it, mainly because im pretty obsessed with Talia wearing the bat mask and red suit in the grand finale. I really dont think thats been talked about enough. My personal theory is that its literally the same one Hurt had ie the authentic Thomas Wayne original, which kind of implies she dug his body up.

The main point we disagree is that I think the 666 future is the "real" future, or as real as any DC future can be. Mainly because I like the idea that Bruce cant escape his fate, but its his fate that creates Batman. I suppose the main supporting text for that would be Batman 700, where the Damien segment is not treated as a vision but one of several time periods.

(side note: those Michael Lane pags from inc really need to be studied closer too.)

I just did a read through of the exact order JBatmanfan05 is talking about, in preperation for a custom bind even! It really is the best way I think. It flows really well, and Ive never thought 701/702 was an adequate fill in for Final Crisis. It works much better as placed by Burnham. And even skipping Final Crisis works if you want, because then you have the mystery of why Dick is Batman in the first. This works really well, even though I love Final Crisis.