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  1. #31
    Astonishing Member Vinsanity's Avatar
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    Pre-52 - Dick moves on from Barbara and gets with Huntress forever and ever and ever

    New 52 - Bruce buys a house plant. Also Grayson to get over Barbara and get away from the Batfam. Also bring back Silver St. Cloud or Vesper Fairchild and not kill them.

  2. #32
    Astonishing Member Dark_Tzitzimine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joybeans View Post
    There are also a lot more important things to characterization than arbitrary power levels.
    Let me see:

    Lobdell's Jason is emotionally mature enough to accept and take responsability for his mistakes
    Little a little he has opened to Roy and is comfortable enough to openly call him partner
    He understands not everything is all about him
    He has some healthy habits and enjoys being well-dressed for his civilians outings
    Has a considerable self control over his emotions and no longer jumps into the offensive at the first opportunity
    Totally trusts Tim

    Batman's Office's Jason

    Has a very odd fixation for drinking and is come to a point where it can be considered a functional alcoholic
    He's the "Punch fisrt ask questions never" type
    He's fast to lash out against anyone in the vicinity
    Tim is his scapegoat, not his friend nor his brother
    Is prone to emotional outburts
    Hides his insecurities under layers and layers of snide remarks and misplaced bravado


    Yeah, I'll take Lobdell's Jason for a country mile.

  3. #33
    Moderator joybeans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Tzitzimine View Post
    Let me see:

    Lobdell's Jason is emotionally mature enough to accept and take responsability for his mistakes
    Little a little he has opened to Roy and is comfortable enough to openly call him partner
    He understands not everything is all about him
    He has some healthy habits and enjoys being well-dressed for his civilians outings
    Has a considerable self control over his emotions and no longer jumps into the offensive at the first opportunity
    Totally trusts Tim

    Batman's Office's Jason

    Has a very odd fixation for drinking and is come to a point where it can be considered a functional alcoholic
    He's the "Punch fisrt ask questions never" type
    He's fast to lash out against anyone in the vicinity
    Tim is his scapegoat, not his friend nor his brother
    Is prone to emotional outburts
    Hides his insecurities under layers and layers of snide remarks and misplaced bravado


    Yeah, I'll take Lobdell's Jason for a country mile.
    Most of those statements are wildly hyperbolic, and a number of them would more accurately apply to the other party. Hanging out in bars is suddenly a sign of alcoholism? Making a joke about blaming Tim somehow translates to treating him as a scapegoat? Dressing well for a date is a major part of characterization?

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by jules View Post
    Well, Barbara had gone a bit crazy at the time. She was probably manic enough in her attack on Joker-Jason that she was exceeding her normal capabilities. Plus, he was obviously holding back and fighting for a draw since he knew what had happened to her. I don't think that particular fight counts as a notch over anyone's headboard.
    She also quite easily pined him to the ground when they first met in issue 12.

    Quote Originally Posted by joybeans View Post
    There are also a lot more important things to characterization than arbitrary power levels.
    Yes, but since fighting seems to be the thing he excels at (especially in comparison to Tim and Barbara), beeing beaten up all the time is not really helping the character. And sofar the fight against Cass was his only good showing in that direction. He allready has the stigmata of being incompetent and a failure and what the way he is handled in the Eternal series sofar is more enforcing this than doing something against it.

    Quote Originally Posted by joybeans View Post
    Hanging out in bars is suddenly a sign of alcoholism?
    But they really show him often hanging around in Bars (sometimes in full costume), while the other characters were basically crime fighting all the time. And that also makes him look kind of unprofessional in comparison. And it is really nothing that he does in his own series.

  5. #35
    Moderator joybeans's Avatar
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    People go to bars to relax after a hard day's work. Jason, in the weekly, is presented as being more social, more laid back, and less brooding in B&RE. Putting him in a bar is just a way to highlight those traits without explicitly spelling them out for the reader. Midnighter frequents bars all the time in his book as well.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by joybeans View Post
    People go to bars to relax after a hard day's work. Jason, in the weekly, is presented as being more social, more laid back, and less brooding in B&RE.
    But Jason is imo the least social and laid back, and most brooding of the Robins (maybe with exception of the Earth 6 Robin ).

    Btw. I actually made here a small collections of scans of the awful stuff they did to Jason in BE. (And there was imo not much good to balance it out)
    Last edited by Aahz; 01-11-2016 at 02:38 AM.

  7. #37
    Incredible Member RedQueen's Avatar
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    I still don't understand how writers make Tim and Jason all buddy-buddy with no build up in New 52. Pre New 52 they hated each other and as i recall someone beat someone with a crowbar at one point.

    like the babs-jason crush was wierd, but at least you got some emotional depth to their relationship. Bab's started off wanting to tear Jason a new one to learning to control her anger thanks to Jason and even crushing on him. At least we got see from getting from Point A to Point B. It was wierd but, you know, effort at least..


    I want a team up book that is consistent in terms of the gangs relationships. I want to see their bonds come into play and not just servicing plot. Just their dynamics which aren't refined at this point.

  8. #38
    Astonishing Member Dark_Tzitzimine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joybeans View Post
    Most of those statements are wildly hyperbolic, and a number of them would more accurately apply to the other party. Hanging out in bars is suddenly a sign of alcoholism? Making a joke about blaming Tim somehow translates to treating him as a scapegoat? Dressing well for a date is a major part of characterization?
    Every single appearance of Jason in the Batman books that is not in combat with a villian is ALWAYS in a bar (A trend that started on Batman Eternal), his first thought after dealing with the bad guy on B&RE was take Tim to a bar despite being underage (and there's no way Jason would do this considering his childhood experiences with substance abuse in his family and his relationship with Roy), and then we have the sequence in Santa Prisca where Jason inmediately went for the drinking angle.

    In contrast, Jason in RH/A admires Roy for his commitement to remain sober, he hangs on top of the line restaurants, cafes, every day dinners and always having a more healthy food than Roy.

    Did you miss Jason lashing out at Tim on Detective Comics during Robin War? Or treating so casually to blame him if something happened to the WAR kids? That is simply reckless and in poor taste, once again, considering Jason's own experiences. Lobdell has Jason treating life as the most precious thing he owns and is less hot headed (he didn't want Roy and JD close to the WAR kids because he didn't trust JD yet and he couldn't keep an eye on both)

    You're the one claiming that Lobdell can't do subtlety or convey info using the art. I'm just pointing out the differences between Lobdell and the Batman writers.


    Quote Originally Posted by RedQueen View Post
    I still don't understand how writers make Tim and Jason all buddy-buddy with no build up in New 52. Pre New 52 they hated each other and as i recall someone beat someone with a crowbar at one point.

    like the babs-jason crush was wierd, but at least you got some emotional depth to their relationship. Bab's started off wanting to tear Jason a new one to learning to control her anger thanks to Jason and even crushing on him. At least we got see from getting from Point A to Point B. It was wierd but, you know, effort at least..
    Jason and Tim are different characters in the N52 compared to their pre N52 counterparts and his relationship has been built over these four years through the different titles the boys have appeared (TT, RHATO, Secret Origin, Red Hood/Arsenal)

    Jason's crush on Barbara was absolutely non sensical. Jason didn't had any kind of interest on Barbara in the N52 while Barbara herself hated his guts so it was something that came from nowhere and went, nowhere. It didn't help either that was written in such way that implied Barbara attention on Jason was just because she saw him as an stand in for Grayson.
    Last edited by Dark_Tzitzimine; 01-11-2016 at 10:01 AM.

  9. #39
    Mighty Member ayanestar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedQueen View Post
    I still don't understand how writers make Tim and Jason all buddy-buddy with no build up in New 52. Pre New 52 they hated each other and as i recall someone beat someone with a crowbar at one point.
    Tim is like a whole new character so why not, it's not like many people are paying attention to him nowadays anyway which is kinda sad but understandable.

    As for the whole topic my opinion is still to fire Lobdell, some Jason fans like him but I can't read whatever he writes, no matter what kind of good points some Jason fans see in his writing 'cause I don't see it, he is just horrible. I also can't stand what he did to Roy but it's not like Roy had a lot of luck with writers over the years so I can try to forgive him that.
    Anyway Tim needs a new direction, I don't really care about Jason at this point, I always thought it would have been better to let him stay dead there are enough former Robins running around especially now with WAR. The most writers turn him into the bad guy and then they usually don't know what to do with him. Lobdell had a few good ideas but he isn't a good writer so it never worked out and the sales are getting worse and worse. They could try it with a Jason solo and a popular writer who can write a character like Jason or put him into a team like The Outsiders who knows it might work out. And if they want to try something totally different turn him into a Red Lantern but their book was already cancelled. I mean they push him in games and stuff but it looks like they don't care much about him otherwise. Nowadays I actually think that Jason and also Dick work better when they are not too much involved with Gotham and the Batfamily. Just let them do their own thing, some fans will whine about it but they will get over it.
    Tim at least had the whole "he is a normal boy with a real family" stuff before so they could work with that. Just reboot him and act like TT never happened, it worked for Starfire when she escaped Lobdell.
    Jason and Tim are like the only two who really need a reboot. Damian and Dick have found their place and are doing fine. As for the girls I guess they are working on a new BOP book.
    Last edited by ayanestar; 01-11-2016 at 10:35 AM.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Tzitzimine View Post
    Every single appearance of Jason in the Batman books that is not in combat with a villian is ALWAYS in a bar (A trend that started on Batman Eternal), his first thought after dealing with the bad guy on B&RE was take Tim to a bar despite being underage (and there's no way Jason would do this considering his childhood experiences with substance abuse in his family and his relationship with Roy), and then we have the sequence in Santa Prisca where Jason inmediately went for the drinking angle.
    Don't forget that Jasons shouldn't be much older than Tim anyway and is definitely younger than 21.

  11. #41
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    I agree about Jason being a bar rat and alcoholic it promotes unhealthy destructive behavior. So edgy and cool right?
    Underage drinking is a crime
    Jason also seems to be trying to corrupt Tim
    Don't you get it yet he's the bad boy of the Bat family
    Just give him a hardcore drug addiction and he'd hit the triple edgy character mold to a T

    It reads like fan fic but I can imagine something much worst has been written by Lobdell

    Maybe if they committed to turning Jason into the mini Punisher he was conceived to be outside of Robin I'd respect the writing a lot more.
    Its like they want him to be bad but not too bad because then it would be problematic
    Last edited by Nite-Wing; 01-11-2016 at 11:29 AM.

  12. #42
    Mighty Member Lady Nightwing's Avatar
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    I can get why Jason fans have a problem with him drinking all the time but the fact that it's illegal to drink booze under 21 is a weird point to dwell on. He killed 8 men and stuffed their heads in a bag, that's ok but he can't drink a beer?

  13. #43
    Astonishing Member batnbreakfast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Nightwing View Post
    I can get why Jason fans have a problem with him drinking all the time but the fact that it's illegal to drink booze under 21 is a weird point to dwell on. He killed 8 men and stuffed their heads in a bag, that's ok but he can't drink a beer?
    Always be sober when you empty your guns into criminals boys and girls

  14. #44
    Mighty Member WhipWhirlwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightwingIvI View Post
    Yup, let's put all the Robins undercover. That would add great variety to the line. Dick- the undercover spy! Jason-the undercover merc. Tim- the undercover hacktivist?

    Kinda too similar IMO.
    I just mean for an arc or 2, not a world shakeup / new status quo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Tim should retire and open a detective agency with Detective Chimp.
    YES

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Nightwing View Post
    I can get why Jason fans have a problem with him drinking all the time but the fact that it's illegal to drink booze under 21 is a weird point to dwell on. He killed 8 men and stuffed their heads in a bag, that's ok but he can't drink a beer?
    No the problem is that they write him as he would be older than he is.
    That he killed guys for dealing to children but is totally OK with underage drinking, despite having and (probably) alcoholic father and and alcoholic as team mate.
    And he doesn't do it in his own series, but it seems do it all the time Eternal.

    And it is also not the only about his characterisation in the Batman series I don't like. And one that is clearly very different from his portrait in every other series (including pre flash point).

    Him drinking beer is one thing, but beeing suddenly so obsessed with beer, asking Tim and Dick with this dump grin to join him, that felt really of (in a more sarcastic way it would have been at least in line with the "Bad Boy"-characterisation).

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