Nate Grey vs Silver Surfer

[master of read]

So being a cosmic force makes you automatically able to destroy galaxies ?

Reality warping is the power to do anything.

You are mixing-up the terms of RAW power with the limits of the power-set.



That's not the first time I'm going through that topic.
Thanks for your concern.

it's not that he's a cosmic force so he can destroy galaxies. he's a cosmic force because he CAN destroy galaxies. as in he has done so before.

[The Drunkard Kid]

So being a cosmic force makes you automatically able to destroy galaxies ?

Reality warping is the power to do anything.

You are mixing-up the terms of RAW power with the limits of the power-set.



That's not the first I'm going through that topic.
Thanks for your concern.

One guy says that Odin is planetary level, vs. Many showings of him operating at levels where he punks planetary/stellar level beings like they were insects, and the occasional feat where he does things on a galactic or greater level scale when he goes full out along with taking part of high end Cosmic interventions. I'll go with the consistent high end feats (and thereby ignore the occasional multiversal feat, since that's well beyond the level of beings that were shown to be above even Odin).

And I think you're mistaking "reality warping," which is admittedly a really vague term to begin with, with "Omnipotence." To go back to A Certain Magical Index, Espers are Reality Warpers since even the weakest power involves altering your local reality to perform feats that are breaking the laws of physics, but (except maybe for the hypothetical Level Six), not even the strongest Esper massively amping his strength by mainlining the full calculation powers of a network of 20,000 other Espers comes close to the functional Omnipotence of the unlimited Magic Gods who have to explicitly separate their powers infinitely to be able to just barely exist in the mortal plane without accidentally rewriting it with their barest thought (or to put it in their own words, make them strong enough to destroy reality, but not strong enough to remake it afterwards).

Odin can manipulate pretty much every aspect of reality, but only to a (crazy high end) degree and there are (a comparatively few) beings that stand above him.

[The Dork Knight]

Okay I can see where this is going

Elixir , Sentry vs Odin , " Reality Warper " vs " Magic user " , who wins ?

[The Dork Knight]

It should be noted however that those Celestials were no average Celestials. These were the mad, alternate Reality counterparts who laid waste to several universes before.

Did they do that on panel ? I don't recall that . They overpowered Infinity Gauntlet users sure , but these were gauntlets as written by Hickman....

That by itself presents an interesting dilemma . If they are together universe busters , what does that make someone like Galactus who they have to team up to beat ?

Not that Celestials aren't crazy powerful, this just seems like an outlier like 4 of them creating the multiverse for example

The argument was specifically that Nate Grey should be able to beat Galactus "at full power," and honestly, even eating four planets isn't really even Galactus at full power since he normally seems to keep himself on the edge of starvation going by how often he ends up having to do emergency food runs.

Eh that's fine , I wasn't arguing about that . I was arguing about you saying he " stomped multiple Celestials " . Which isn't quite what happened

Surfer has specifically talked to Frankie Raye Nova about how Heralds blow up stars for fun,

Yet Nova was the only one who ever did it on panel with her flame powers playing a role in addition to the power cosmic . Statements are not feats

has absorbed the power of a sun,

If you are talking about infinity crusade that then proceeded to KO him

and can generate singularities on demand,

Eh...while he has other feats on that scale he's onlu ever done it the once , not even the other heralds have done it . "On demand " is a bit much don't ya think ?

and his Power Cosmic has been used to perform enough transmutation and other kinds of esoterics (like resurrecting the dead, global time manipulation, etc...) that he should fit under the rather nebulous curtain of "reality warper." I can't think of anything off hand that lower end result warpers like, for instance, Proteus, has done that Surfer couldn't easily replicate. Or anything that I can actually remember Nate Grey doing on screen, reality-warpers-wise.

And that's fine and I realise we are splitting hairs here but a GL can do much of the same that Surfer does but isn't called a reality Warper either

It's the nature of powers and how they work that makes them fall under the classification . Thor can do a lot of the things Surfer does , with Mjolnir , yet his powers are magical in nature and he isn't considered a reality Warper

It's meaningless to this battle ( or any other ) ,and there are reality Warpers and reality Warpers ranging from proteus as you said to Franklin ,and its feats that count , but surfers powers aren't exactly " reality warping " by how we commonly understand that term

Also none of that is " solar system" busting , which I believe is an inaccurate claim with regards to Surfers actual feats

[The Drunkard Kid]

For what is worth, I do consider Thor and GLs to be Reality Warpers as well, especially since, like Surfer draws upon the Power Cosmic from Galactus, their powers originate from powerful Cosmics, namely the Godly power of Odin and the emerald energy of the Central Battery/Guardians/Ion Entity.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Nova is generally depicted as being weaker than Surfer, and Surfer (who uses the same power, but with far greater versatility and experience) was telling her about how that thing she did isn't particularly special for people like the two of them. As for the other things, "Solar System" level is about where I place Surfer as topping out, so him being only just able to absorb a star (99+% of the mass and energy of a solar system - at least, of solar systems with just one sun) or only rarely creating singularities fits in fine with "solar system busting" and, for the purposes of this fight is far beyond any actual feats I've seen brought out for Nate Grey, thus far. Surfer also allegedly got a power up recently, but I'm given to understand that the general level of his feats hasn't really seemed to have changed.

[The Drunkard Kid]

Also, just because Odin is in a business suit and telling Dr. Thor to back up because he's about to be awesome:

Missing panel 6, explaining why Thor has to clear the floor:

[The Dork Knight]

For what is worth, I do consider Thor and GLs to be Reality Warpers as well, especially since, like Surfer draws upon the Power Cosmic from Galactus, their powers originate from powerful Cosmics, namely the Godly power of Odin and the emerald energy of the Central Battery/Guardians/Ion Entity.

Well I disagree but to each his own I guess

To me things that come with an explanation ( " Mine magic mallet changes thine structure from matter to anti matter !" " My ring/power cosmic transforms your molecules to something else " ) are intuitively not reality warping but matter manipulation / whatever . People like Beyonder clicking his fingers and making things happen , or even lesser beings like Mxy ,Captain Atom or even Dr Manhattan without nary an explanation are people whom I consider " reality warpers"

That and people whose powers are NOT primarily energy based attacks , with little extra shenanigans thrown in . Again , this is how I see it , not necessarily the correct definition...

Also, I'm pretty sure that Nova is generally depicted as being weaker than Surfer, and Surfer (who uses the same power, but with far greater versatility and experience)

That was one of the problems with the feat the last time it was brought up . Pendaran pointed out that Nova isn't one of the stronger heralds and nothing really supports this feat / outlier when not even the strongest heralds can do this.

Also can I see a scan of when he said that all heralds can do this ?

Moreover it wasn't straight up star busting but "burning all its fuel" at once

Also, Nova actually had flame powers prior to becoming a herald so it isn't something that all power cosmic users can just do imo

was telling her about how that thing she did isn't particularly special for people like the two of them.

When did he say that

As for the other things, "Solar System" level is about where I place Surfer as topping out, so him being only just able to absorb a star (99+% of the mass and energy of a solar system - at least, of solar systems with just one sun)

He didn't absorb the whole star . He absorbed what he could and that nearly killed him. The star( our sun ) continued burning unaffected

The only other Star level feat was when he caught and tossed back a star at deadpool , which again the last time it was brought up was considered a)non canon b) not in line with his other physical strength showings

One more instance was as I said when he absorbed enough energy to bust a solar system . Which is well....not something under his own power . But given he could absorb so much power ...I dunno

or only rarely creating singularities fits in fine with "solar system busting"

For this feat I was just pointing out its not quite so casual for the surfer as you make it.

and, for the purposes of this fight is far beyond any actual feats I've seen brought out for Nate Grey, thus far. Surfer also allegedly got a power up recently, but I'm given to understand that the general level of his feats hasn't really seemed to have changed.

Nate busted a moon once IIRc. That's about it

Post Surfers supposed power up came the deadpool star feat and this interesting statement

[AlphaMale]

The principle is: "high FEATS consistent with the characters presentation"

Not arrative

No writer statements

No wikis or statements from the internet

No hand books

Feats

[Elixir]

One guy says that Odin is planetary level, vs. Many showings of him operating at levels where he punks planetary/stellar level beings like they were insects, and the occasional feat where he does things on a galactic or greater level scale when he goes full out along with taking part of high end Cosmic interventions. I'll go with the consistent high end feats (and thereby ignore the occasional multiversal feat, since that's well beyond the level of beings that were shown to be above even Odin).

And I think you're mistaking "reality warping," which is admittedly a really vague term to begin with, with "Omnipotence." To go back to A Certain Magical Index, Espers are Reality Warpers since even the weakest power involves altering your local reality to perform feats that are breaking the laws of physics, but (except maybe for the hypothetical Level Six), not even the strongest Esper massively amping his strength by mainlining the full calculation powers of a network of 20,000 other Espers comes close to the functional Omnipotence of the unlimited Magic Gods who have to explicitly separate their powers infinitely to be able to just barely exist in the mortal plane without accidentally rewriting it with their barest thought (or to put it in their own words, make them strong enough to destroy reality, but not strong enough to remake it afterwards).

Odin can manipulate pretty much every aspect of reality, but only to a (crazy high end) degree and there are (a comparatively few) beings that stand above him.

A) It depends on how much effort the character put in the feat too. If he do a very high-end feat it without exerting himself at all, it is legit to think that he can do it at will. I admit that I always thinked that Odin was a galaxy buster but maybe that's his tru power only when he is going all-out then.

B) Reality warping is not vague at all. It's the power to bend the reality to your whims. It's your raw power which will determine the scale you can affect the reality from a local distortion with beings like Proteus with no permanent effect (when he leaves the area everything goes back to normal, even Goo Wolverine) to Molecule Man whom can erase or create entire pans of the Universe easily (and more than that). The skills are using the reality warping is another thing as they determine how the user will use his power and affect the world around him. The finest the control is, the less collateral damages happens.

C) The Magic has rules and drawbacks that the Reality Warping don't suffer. Magic is less reliable and rely on rituals, components (often), prerquisites... Reality warpers shape the reality with their will, it's a power psionic in nature.

Okay I can see where this is going

Elixir , Sentry vs Odin , " Reality Warper " vs " Magic user " , who wins ?

If you know me, you know what I'm thinking about this.

1) I see Sentry above Odin. You don't contain a Sentinent Cosmic-Cube being before destroying him easily if you aren't far more potent than him in the first place so for your first question I would say Sentry. I could list the numerous advantages that he owns and that Odin don't too.

2) About the power vs power fight, it highly depends on how powerful & skilled the users are. A reality warper always have more versatility than a magic user but it truly depends how they uses their powers. Scarlet Witch is used to amp her Reality Warping powers through the use of Magic. That is a good proof that they are different powers aswell.

The principle is: "high FEATS consistent with the characters presentation"

Not arrative

No writer statements

No wikis or statements from the internet

No hand books

Feats

Fine.

I really don't know what to think about that rumble between Odin & Seth.

If that's not hyperbolic, I see that at the upper-limit of Odin that has been exposed.

It could make sense that Odin unleashing his power would destroys entire galaxies, in my opinion.

[Anarchist]

Did they do that on panel ? I don't recall that . They overpowered Infinity Gauntlet users sure , but these were gauntlets as written by Hickman....

Wait, I didn't say Universe BUSTER, I said they laid waste to several universes, as in, killed everything in it.

[Anarchist]

I see Sentry above Odin.

Well everyone is allowed to have his opinion, but that's certainly not how we peg him here.
At rumbles, Sentry is regarded to be in the same Weight Class as Thanos.
Meaning severely above Heralds, but also severely below Skyfathers, let alone Celestials or Galactus.

[Elixir]

Well everyone is allowed to have his opinion, but that's certainly not how we peg him here.
At rumbles, Sentry is regarded to be in the same Weight Class as Thanos.
Meaning severely above Heralds, but also severely below Skyfathers, let alone Celestials or Galactus.

Effortlessly stomping Molecule Man.

Having a report to the President of The USA by Tony Stark, actual chairman of the TASK force, whom worked and studied Sentry during years and said that his psionic power could lead to another HOM on whim.

Having a second report of the same Tony Stark that said that Sentry has the ability for unlimited psionic power puts him above Odin imo.

Thanos isn't close to have the power to beat Molecule Man effortlessly.

[Anarchist]

Thanos could literally wade through everything Post-Retcon MM would throw at him.
He has endured Reality Warping shit like this, without really noticing.

[The Dork Knight]

And Odin's been called omnipotent and was shaking the multiverse in his fight with Set.

Doesn't make him multiversal . Would be what's called an outlier

Aside from that God Doom with MMs power now has Sentry running around Battle World just like everyone else . How pray, do you explain that ?

[Elixir]

Thanos could literally wade through everything Post-Retcon MM would throw at him.
He has endured Reality Warping shit like this, without really noticing.

You are showing Thanos resisting to some sort of environnemental effects.

He has been changed to stone by Adam Warlock before.