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  1. #46
    Astonishing Member Old Man Ollie 1962's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Banner View Post
    And they aren't even the worst forum. You wouldn't like to know what some ''thor fans'' say about Jane at comicboards.com, for example. It's really disgusting.
    Can't fathom that kind of hate...for a comic book character.

  2. #47
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    What's interesting is that in actual Norse myth, it actually is more balanced, at least in part. Most people only know of Valhalla, but there was another afterlife for the honored dead called Fˇlkvangr which Freyja presided over, and fulfilled much the same function as Valhalla. Not all who died honorably in battle went to Valhalla, an equal number went to Fˇlkvangr.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%B3lkvangr

    So we may end up seeing that added to Marvel canon.
    Possibly, but Norse myth is mostly constructed in the nineteenth century, from fragments. Wikipedia is made up of that and fragments from twentieth century, psychology inspired, mythology. In other words, Norse myth is a great thing to use to write stories, because nobody can tell you, you are wrong. Just look at Loki, academics will argue we really don't know who he was, but in popular mythology everyone asserts he is either a trickster or a fire deity on sketchy evidence. But, with that lack of evidence and a bit of cross cultural filling of gaps we get the awesome work that is the Ring Cycle.

    ---
    Side note: reading up a little on the idea of Folkvangr, I immediately start to worry about why Freyja is being placed in the role of Frigg in the Poetic Edda at this point. It is easy at that point to disappear down a rabbit hole because these very notions were debated to death in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Marvel have always associated the two, and many mythologists do today but the association does not hold true across all of the literature.

    The counter argument was that Frigg was the wife of Odin and Freyja was a separate figure, associated with her brother Freyr, literally Lord and Lady and possibly associated with the notions of king and queen and some argue male/female and sex/love. Indeed in the interpretation that suggests the Norse myth changed over time, this implied incest was wiped away by marrying each of these figures off. Another interpretation popular around this period of argument, was that Freyr and Freyja were from a separate Vanir mythology which became tied into a wider mythology.

    This is all a long winded way of saying Marvel could choose a totally different female deity to divide the dead up with Odin and not be wrong per se. One could also argue they have already done this with Hela.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 11-19-2015 at 04:49 AM.

  3. #48
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Actually, thinking about the Eddas and Norse mythology in general has suddenly made me put a few things together in that way only myth and story can.

    Maybe Aaron is telling his own version of the story of how Thor regained Mj÷llnir from Thrym of the Jotnar. In that tale Thor is dressed as Freyja as a disguise. Thrym has taken Mj÷llnir and will only return it if he can marry Freyja. Thor grabs the hammer when it is about to be used as part of the marriage ceremony and kills everyone.

    Many interpret the dressing as a woman as a shameful and degrading act, but some see it as a form of sei˛r magic. That magic is about crossing gender and is more usually associated with Odin, such that the Thor story is almost a comical contrast.

    But what if the change of Thor's gender in the comics is all part of the regaining of Odinson's worthiness. It may be granting Aaron with more subtlety than the story can bear, but there is a thematic echo here. I wonder if we will see an actual kidnapping of Frejya or Thor, or an attempt to marry Thor as a claim on the throne of Asgard.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 11-19-2015 at 04:45 AM.

  4. #49
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Myth aside, does anyone else think there is a literary device being developed, related to the Dark Council being analogous to Jane's cancer? Corruption = cancer is a well trodden allusion.

    The issue seems full of related imagery, even if not exact and sometimes muddled. The spaced elves look a little like blood cells, and the space station core reminds me of a needle plunging into the earth. The target seems deliberate, as if Malekith is making a statement about war, (the kind he recognises and the kind he doesn't).

    The darkness of the council and their terrorist like agenda implies a hidden threat, and plotting assassination of Thor is directly parallel to the cancer that threatens to kill Jane. I guess it depends if the analogy is used throughout the volume or if it is just a throw away device used during the set-up.

  5. #50
    Veteran Member shgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Myth aside, does anyone else think there is a literary device being developed, related to the Dark Council being analogous to Jane's cancer? Corruption = cancer is a well trodden allusion.

    The issue seems full of related imagery, even if not exact and sometimes muddled. The spaced elves look a little like blood cells, and the space station core reminds me of a needle plunging into the earth. The target seems deliberate, as if Malekith is making a statement about war, (the kind he recognises and the kind he doesn't).

    The darkness of the council and their terrorist like agenda implies a hidden threat, and plotting assassination of Thor is directly parallel to the cancer that threatens to kill Jane. I guess it depends if the analogy is used throughout the volume or if it is just a throw away device used during the set-up.
    I can't say I made any of those visual connections, but there definitely seems to be an analogy of sorts between Jane being held back by the cancer in her body, and Asgard being held back by Odin's current malignance, intentional or otherwise.

  6. #51
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Is this the same Asgard the hammer landed in from the conclusion of SW Thors, or is Asgardia something different?
    Last edited by jackolover; 11-20-2015 at 04:03 AM.

  7. #52
    Veteran Member shgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Is this the same Asgard the hammer landed in from the conclusion of SW Thors, or is Asgardians something different?
    No the hammer landed in the abandoned realm of Asgard, whereas they still live in the floaty space Asgardia just off earth (although apparently it has moved further away or something).

  8. #53
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shgs View Post
    No the hammer landed in the abandoned realm of Asgard, whereas they still live in the floaty space Asgardia just off earth (although apparently it has moved further away or something).
    Yes, that is partly my fault if you are going from the synopsis. I can't get my head around calling it Asgardia. Hopefully at some point the city will settle back down on Asgard and we can forget the distinction. Thors referred to the Ultimate Mjolnir's resting place as Old Asgard "Where once lived the gods". And, there was no sign of habitation.

    P.S. I have been trying to work out when this distinction first happened and it turns out to be The Mighty Thor #8 when Freyja names it and declares Odin to be in "Asgard-Space" and to have locked the door behind him.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 11-20-2015 at 02:59 AM.

  9. #54
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shgs View Post
    I can't say I made any of those visual connections, but there definitely seems to be an analogy of sorts between Jane being held back by the cancer in her body, and Asgard being held back by Odin's current malignance, intentional or otherwise.
    Thinking about it after writing that, I think I was mixing up two literary devices. I think the first few pages of this issue make use of a visual analogy for the way Thor fights off the chemotherapy. Stopping the needle like space station comes before the narration about the way the Thor personality throws off the drugs, but happens while that process is in place.

    The second analogy of Malekith's plotting and the corruption of Roxxon are more related to the ten realms and Odin, so that analogy is possibly the one that will build thematically over the volume.

    P.S. the title "Thunder in Her Veins" also underlines the chemotherapy aspect of this story.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 11-20-2015 at 04:33 AM.

  10. #55
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shgs View Post
    No the hammer landed in the abandoned realm of Asgard, whereas they still live in the floaty space Asgardia just off earth (although apparently it has moved further away or something).
    Thanks. I thought there were two places.

  11. #56
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Yes, that is partly my fault if you are going from the synopsis. I can't get my head around calling it Asgardia. Hopefully at some point the city will settle back down on Asgard and we can forget the distinction. Thors referred to the Ultimate Mjolnir's resting place as Old Asgard "Where once lived the gods". And, there was no sign of habitation.

    P.S. I have been trying to work out when this distinction first happened and it turns out to be The Mighty Thor #8 when Freyja names it and declares Odin to be in "Asgard-Space" and to have locked the door behind him.
    Then somehow Odin left Asgard to come to Asgardia.

  12. #57
    Veteran Member shgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Then somehow Odin left Asgard to come to Asgardia.
    He came back in that Angela-related Original Sin tie in, if I recall. It all seems a bit needlessly complicated to me, and I'm not sure what we gain from Asgardia existing separately from Asgard. And yet it is Jane using the name Thor that apparently stretches incredulity too far, LOL.

  13. #58
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Then somehow Odin left Asgard to come to Asgardia.
    I think this got muddled by the multiple writers since the end of Fear Itself I always assumed Odin was going back to his never ending fight against Surtur, but in Loki and Original Sin the notion that he was just holed up on Asgard with Cul Borson arose. Loki opened the 'locked door' and Odin decided it was time to come back. That tied into Al Ewing's 'Gods above Gods' analogy for the Beyonders, and allowed Odin to return in Aaron's story too.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 11-20-2015 at 04:40 AM. Reason: corrected which event I was talking about.

  14. #59
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shgs View Post
    He came back in that Angela-related Original Sin tie in, if I recall. It all seems a bit needlessly complicated to me, and I'm not sure what we gain from Asgardia existing separately from Asgard. And yet it is Jane using the name Thor that apparently stretches incredulity too far, LOL.
    What we gain now, is the prospect of Asgardia eventually being positioned back in its own realm instead of some vague orbit around Earth. Aaron is probably building to that.

  15. #60
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    There is also some weirdness going on in SHIELD #12 coming out next week, where Red somebody kills Odin, and Asgard declares war on Midgard, killing all the super heroes in the first attack. Is this all in continuity, in ANAD or is this before Secret Wars?

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