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  1. #76
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shura View Post
    That's an interesting thought. There're clearly reminders to the classics Thor stories having again the secret identity issue. Honestly I never really like the Donald Blake thing. Always felt it like an obstacle. But also I can't remember a lot of interesting stuff related to him, so if a writer wants to take the idea and tell something interesting with that I'll ok with that. Just please. No more confusion aboutif Blake is real or not.
    Part of the problem with Blake is that they didn't do many interesting things with him. The original concept was very quickly muddled once the Odin plot got explained. That took away the wish fulfilment idea, left Blake stranded as a less consequential character. Some writers tried to do things with him but the drift from a Billy Batson/Captain Marvel style towards a Clark Kent/Superman style was already there. By the time we get to Blake not being real I think the writers had totally lost the plot.

    As a side issue if somebody wants to chart the retcons that have occurred with Blake I would love to see a clear summary because it all feels very muddled in my memory and whenever I try and remind myself by googling it I get more confused. In fact I seem to get it all straight and then it slips away like a dream.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shura View Post
    Regards SHIELD. I haven't read it. Just the preview. But it looks like something that will be easily fixed by time travel, specially if it takes place before Secret WArs because it contradicts not just AoA but also the last Thor issue. Where everybody says Odin is alive, a bit crazy, but alive..
    We will see, I trust Waid, and I doubt he will mess with continuity. In fact part of his role on SHIElD seems to be to assert continuity choices from editorial.

  2. #77
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tayroar View Post
    Okay, we're talking about Odin. I'm just saying. Odin is a little too trusting of Cul and a little too distrusting of everyone else. Odin's always been a dick but not a stupid crazy dick. I really think Cul is influencing him in some way, and it's interesting that all of Odin's ire is coming down on Thor who happened to be the one figure capable of stopping him last time. I really think that Cul is trying to rid himself of the obstacle that is Thor so that he can do his fear-lord thing all over again.
    The character of Odin is always going to be a complex one. In Marvel he has always been the very model for a dysfunctional father. Like the father of a small child he often doesn't feel the need to explain his actions, and acts in ways that often don't make sense. I would argue he has often 'appeared' stupid and crazy before his true motives are revealed.

    He is also a problem for writers.It is difficult to square him being both infuriating and arbitrary with being wise and benevolent. Wisdom would probably involve letting Thor in on the plots not excluding him, but as Thor is usually the viewpoint character that can't happen.

    In the real world it is fascinating that very little evidence that Odin was ever actively worshipped can be found. By contrast evidence of Thor worship is common. Perhaps heroes are just more popular than father figures amongst warrior cultures. And before someone pipes up that not all of the Norse were warriors, the farmers clearly held Freyr (brother of Freyja) in higher regard than Odin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    Well, I don't think Aaron would have brought back Cul without a reason, that's for sure. There was nothing about how Fear Itself ended that meant that when Loki sprung Odin from his vigil, Cul would come too. I mean, he was DEAD at the end of Fear Itself, it's still yet to be explained why he's even alive again.
    The way he gets introduced in Original Sin is very strange. It is always tempting to blame the bits of collaborations you don't like on the writers you don't care for but as Aaron was also credited as writer I will resist. The problem is Odin and Cul were brought back in such a vague manner. Have they been playing chess that whole time? Why was Cul even there? Was Cul working on Odin throughout? Why did Odin place himself in exile anyway?

    The chess game does suggest there is a game in play between Odin and Cul. Odin clearly thinks he can control Cul if not trust him.

    I don't have a problem with Odin being so against the "false Thor" that seems like a good dramatic conflict to have bubbling away, and entirely in his character.

    Of course the best way to make Odin likeable and understood is to bring in Anthony Hopkins, but this is comics so that won't happen here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shura View Post
    I still think Cul is there with a reason. But he wasn't in the huge cover and no word has been said about him in the interviews I read so it's a bit strange.
    I hadn't noticed he wasn't on the cover, but then neither was Odin so it may just represent their story won't be told straight away.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 11-21-2015 at 03:08 AM.

  3. #78
    Incredible Member frizb's Avatar
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    How long has Blake been out of the Thor books? (not counting the dead Blakes in SW)

  4. #79
    Veteran Member shgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    As a side issue if somebody wants to chart the retcons that have occurred with Blake I would love to see a clear summary because it all feels very muddled in my memory and whenever I try and remind myself by googling it I get more confused. In fact I seem to get it all straight and then it slips away like a dream.
    I only know this from reading synopses, but I always thought that the initial Donald Blake retcon was that he went from being a Billy Batson/Captain Marvel type, to "Thor was Blake all along, and Odin had been teaching him a lesson in humility"... then subsequent writers decided to bring him back as a separate character. Or were you referring, when you say he drifted towards a Clark Kent style alter ego, to those initial few years before it was revealed he was Thor all along?

  5. #80
    Askani'Son Drakeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frizb View Post
    How long has Blake been out of the Thor books? (not counting the dead Blakes in SW)
    Blake was basically killed off shortly after Fear Itself during Matt Fractions run.
    "Dear World: the nation of mutantkind is watching you. Do not #$%& with us." -Cable-

  6. #81
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drakeon View Post
    Blake was basically killed off shortly after Fear Itself during Matt Fractions run.
    Killed off with extreme prejudice just as we were thinking he was back for good! And the context made him feel very unreal, but I will refrain from spoiling that volume here.

  7. #82
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shgs View Post
    I only know this from reading synopses, but I always thought that the initial Donald Blake retcon was that he went from being a Billy Batson/Captain Marvel type, to "Thor was Blake all along, and Odin had been teaching him a lesson in humility"... then subsequent writers decided to bring him back as a separate character.
    Indeed, even the Odin reveal felt like a retcon at the time (not that I actually read it at the time) it felt very forced but it at least enabled them to tie in all the mythological material they had been printing.

    Or were you referring, when you say he drifted towards a Clark Kent style alter ego, to those initial few years before it was revealed he was Thor all along?
    It's more of a thesis than a direct observation. I think various writers had different perspectives, some continued to see Blake as a separate personality and some as an alter ego, and of course like all of those things eventually an editor or a writer tries to definitively define the role and messes the whole thing up.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 11-21-2015 at 04:08 AM.

  8. #83
    Veteran Member jphamlore's Avatar
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    Jason Aaron was raising the issue of (a) Thor Odinson's unworthiness from the very first pages of his run on Thor, in his depiction of young Thor. We can consider what made young Thor unworthy. An easy answer is he is impetuous due to youth, but I think another factor is how he is treating his human companions. He is their fellow adventurer but not their protector, in fact, they save him from Gorr.

    The common thread I see is Thor Odinson is worthy when he feels he is adequately protecting Midgard. Young Thor Odinson was not up to responsibility. King Thor was doing what he could for a devastated Earth far in the future. Present-day Thor was doing okay up to the point when he was defeated both by Malekith and by Dario Agger and Roxxon for reasons that showed he could not win by merely using his fists and Mjolnir. He briefly regained his worthiness in Hickman's New Avengers when he thought he was going to die in battle and thus had no more cares.

    This I think also explains why a Jane Foster dying of cancer is worthy, because she too must live moment by moment secure in knowing she is doing the best she can. Also she is of Midgard and is thus not torn by the responsibilities Thor has of being a god, the conflict that I think makes Thor Odinson incapable of committing to being Midgard's protector.

    I am more puzzled why there is any mystery why current Thor Odinson is unworthy. The reasons are right there in the comics.
    Last edited by jphamlore; 11-22-2015 at 01:23 PM.

  9. #84
    Spectacular Member oldschoolfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jphamlore View Post
    Jason Aaron was raising the issue of (a) Thor Odinson's unworthiness from the very first pages of his run on Thor, in his depiction of young Thor. We can consider what made young Thor unworthy. An easy answer is he is impetuous due to youth, but I think another factor is how he is treating his human companions. He is their fellow adventurer but not their protector, in fact, they save him from Gorr.
    Here's my issue, Jason Aaron isn't really being consistent with the character. Aaron's Thor doesn't act like he learned his lesson from his youth. For example, the Thor I remember would sacrifice his own freedom to fight for Hercules in Hades. AND this was after Herc tried to kick his butt and humiliate him. That nobility that Thor possessed is gone. I don't see it any where, except when its Jane Foster. She acts like the Thor I remember.

    My problem with Jane Foster was that she had her shot at being an Asgardian. She didn't want it.

    Soooo these really aren't the same characters that Lee/Kirby created.

    I have posted about this before, but I just am not sure if my pov is really valid any more.....any one could say to me that these comics aren't written for you, you are an old fan.

    Quote Originally Posted by jphamlore View Post
    The common thread I see is Thor Odinson is worthy when he feels he is adequately protecting Midgard. Young Thor Odinson was not up to responsibility. King Thor was doing what he could for a devastated Earth far in the future.
    Even when Aaron was portraying Thor as an aged adult, I still felt like this Thor just got off his Harley and would take care of things after he had a beer. While I see Hercules acting that way, I just don't see that as being Thor.

    As far as the unworthiness goes, someone posted to me a while back that it might have something to do with Odin's magic on the hammer. Beyond that, I still feel it is the biggest question that Aaron needs to deal with.

    This current storyline with the Jane FosThor is interesting, but I really am hoping someone else takes over the book and resolves it. The art is superb!

    The one author that has handled Thor well recently is Jonathan Hickman......any one read those issues of Infinity or the issues of Avengers right before Secret Wars? Waid's Hulk/Thor team up was good too!

  10. #85
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jphamlore View Post
    Jason Aaron was raising the issue of (a) Thor Odinson's unworthiness from the very first pages of his run on Thor, in his depiction of young Thor. We can consider what made young Thor unworthy. An easy answer is he is impetuous due to youth, but I think another factor is how he is treating his human companions. He is their fellow adventurer but not their protector, in fact, they save him from Gorr.

    The common thread I see is Thor Odinson is worthy when he feels he is adequately protecting Midgard. Young Thor Odinson was not up to responsibility. King Thor was doing what he could for a devastated Earth far in the future. Present-day Thor was doing okay up to the point when he was defeated both by Malekith and by Dario Agger and Roxxon for reasons that showed he could not win by merely using his fists and Mjolnir. He briefly regained his worthiness in Hickman's New Avengers when he thought he was going to die in battle and thus had no more cares.

    This I think also explains why a Jane Foster dying of cancer is worthy, because she too must live moment by moment secure in knowing she is doing the best she can. Also she is of Midgard and is thus not torn by the responsibilities Thor has of being a god, the conflict that I think makes Thor Odinson incapable of committing to being Midgard's protector.

    I am more puzzled why there is any mystery why current Thor Odinson is unworthy. The reasons are right there in the comics.
    While I totally agree that the book has been about worthiness from that time, I don't agree that the central test of that worthiness has been about protecting Midgard. That is just the arena that many of the stories take place in. Yes, Thor has always taken his duty as protector of Earth seriously, and that duty informs his sense of worthiness, but nothing suggests that this is the reason he is not currently worthy. His inability to intervene was more about how the enemy can hide behind corporate protection and prove unresolvable by might. That suggests a corruption theme with a commentary on unbridled exploitation of resources but nothing about that setup suggests unworthiness to me. Inability to act doesn't make somebody less virtuous. And self perception is unlikely to be the key to a more objective sense of worth.

    Much more likely IMO the worthiness issue will be a past act revealed to have caused great damage or suffering, that through a lack of due attentiveness Thor could have alleviated or reversed.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 11-22-2015 at 06:35 PM.

  11. #86
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldschoolfan View Post
    Here's my issue, Jason Aaron isn't really being consistent with the character. Aaron's Thor doesn't act like he learned his lesson from his youth. For example, the Thor I remember would sacrifice his own freedom to fight for Hercules in Hades. AND this was after Herc tried to kick his butt and humiliate him. That nobility that Thor possessed is gone. I don't see it any where, except when its Jane Foster. She acts like the Thor I remember.

    My problem with Jane Foster was that she had her shot at being an Asgardian. She didn't want it.

    Soooo these really aren't the same characters that Lee/Kirby created.

    I have posted about this before, but I just am not sure if my pov is really valid any more.....any one could say to me that these comics aren't written for you, you are an old fan.
    I don't think that your longer term view makes your point less valid, I just think it is a bit unreasonable to expect every writer to perceive the characters in the exact way you do. You are defining Thor's nobility in the past in a very narrow way and then comparing recent actions to that standard as if there have been no other inconsistencies in the last fifty years.

    As for Jane I believe it is entirely deliberate that Jane's Thor is acting more like Thor of old. The aspirant wish fulfilment concept from the early comics is being specifically referenced here. I also think there is a deliberate contrast between Jane as Thor - protector of Midgard, and the Jane who does not want to loose her humanity and become an Asgardian.

  12. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Killed off with extreme prejudice just as we were thinking he was back for good! And the context made him feel very unreal, but I will refrain from spoiling that volume here.
    Seriously-- again? I'm very angry.

  13. #88
    Incredible Member frizb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drakeon View Post
    Blake was basically killed off shortly after Fear Itself during Matt Fractions run.
    Thanks! I'll have to read that.

  14. #89
    Rachel Grey-Summers Sardorim's Avatar
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    I'm sure there will be a cope out and she won't die.

  15. #90
    Mighty Member ian0delond's Avatar
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    Or die and then come back from Vahalla.

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