Alpha Flight Fans: Gather

[Adam-X]

Amazing X-Men #8 discussion - SPOILERS AHEAD!

If you haven't read Amazing X-Men #8, stop reading now.



I thought this was a fun, interesting story. Interesting that they put Heather back in her Volume 2 outfit. I thought the lead up with Mac was interesting. The Wendigo thing - and how it came to be, was a nice creative touch, for getting that to happen. The weird thing was Puck and Talisman. I would not have seen that one coming...

[Orb]

Who would you all like to see write an Alpha Flight series?
Who would you want to art it?

What would you like to see done with the characters?

Grant Morrison
Tom scioli

Have the team deal with the weirder side of the marvel universe so it can feel different than other team books. Have them feel and act like winners not the joke team they've become recently. Follow Byrnes lead and have multiple issues dedicated to single issue stories of different team members, then have them get together for really big threats. Bring back dept h and the beta and gamma flights to introduce new characters into the book. Bring back a strong connection between alpha flight and the other x titles but keep wolverine off the team.

[Wedge Antilles]

All of Byrne's run is worthy of collecting. In any way (and multiple ways) you can get it.
I'm still reading Mantlo's run, and it is proving to be rather disappointing.

Thanks, your recommendation and insight is duly noted!

[OBrianTallent]

Grant Morrison
Tom scioli

Have the team deal with the weirder side of the marvel universe so it can feel different than other team books. Have them feel and act like winners not the joke team they've become recently. Follow Byrnes lead and have multiple issues dedicated to single issue stories of different team members, then have them get together for really big threats. Bring back dept h and the beta and gamma flights to introduce new characters into the book. Bring back a strong connection between alpha flight and the other x titles but keep wolverine off the team.

If I remember correctly, this is what Oeming had actually pitched for a new Alpha Flight series for what eventually became the extremely good Omega Flight mini series.

[sureshot]

I'm waiting for Mystique to be portraited as the golden hearted misunderstood stepsister of Xavier now, fdue to the movies.

Peace

It works in the movies. I don't think it will work in comics. Not without a retcon. The current comic version was ruined by the writers. Magneto in his solo is a good example of how Mystique should be written. Instead even if dthey write her as "golden hearted misunderstood stepsister of Xavier" who would believe her. No one. Broke too many promises and backstabbed and betrayed too many people imo.

I would like to see Alpha Flight interact with more villains. Or bigger scale. Part of the reason, I think, everyone treats Alpha Flight like a joke, is because they haven't fought big named villains. And none of their villains (with the exception of The Great Beasts), have been on the caliber of Ultron, Magneto, Galactus, etc.

Not too many vilains travel up to Canada. At least not without a good reason. I see what your getting at yet I would like to see new villains for AF of the caliber of Ultron.

[Sutekh]

That could go both ways. The Master is a great villain, particularly with Plodex technology and minions, and could easily be the focus of an X-Men, Fantastic Four or Avengers arc (through Marrina, he's got pretty strong ties to Namor, for instance, who's been a major player in all three of those franchises, at various times, so a Plodex attack that threatens Atlantis could pull him in, and through him, any others he's currently hanging with). There's also the question of what happens to any Plodex survivors of such a battle. They are mostly mindless killing machines, but Marrina Smallwood is living proof, right there in your face, that *they don't have to be.* Can they be 'redeemed' or educated or 'mainstreamed,' or do they need to be locked away forever and ever (and which chucklehead antihero idiot with rivers of blood on their hands will be the first to hypocritically argue that they need to be killed?).

The Great Beasts are supernatural god-like entities, no more or less suitable for invocations by bad-guy mystics than Dormammu (and 100% less dead and / or deposed than Dormammu!), or Satannish, or Set, or Cthon, or Shuma-Gorath. A loser villain selling out to extradimensional evil for a shot at not being a loser, like the Hood or Arcade or the Grim Reaper, or a pre-existing supernaturally-savvy foe like Baron Mordo, could draw upon them for various invocations, such as calling up the Living Flame of Tolomaq, or the Devouring Illusions of Ranaq, or empowering expendable mooks with the Savage Strength of Tanaraq (that may or may not burn them out and kill them in the process, but we don't hire expendable minions who can read the warning label, now do we?).

And so, even if Alpha Flight isn't mentioned by name, their 'rogue's gallery' being used outside of their own stories could serve to keep them an active part of the Marvel Universe. (Just as Sabertooth, a two-bit Iron Fist villain found new life as an X-foe.)

Other threats have a less nation-specific range.

Who knows the extent of the Mole Man's underground domain, or the Deviant / Moloid underground societies?

Not every one of Dr. Demonicus' giant monster experiments necessarily has to beeline for California. Some might veer north and threaten Vancouver.

Is there a Latverian embassy in Toronto, and, if so, whose jurisdiction is it when someone flees the embassy, chased by robot enforcers, seeking asylum *from* Latveria?

Northstar and Aurora and Diamond Lil and Madison Jeffries and Wild Child are plentiful evidence that there are mutants in Canada, and yet Canada doesn't seem the sort of country that would build Sentinels (instead recruiting mutants willy-nilly for their Department H initiatives). What does Magneto think of that sort of 'backdoor draft' of mutant Canadians to serve and protect the non-mutant citizenry? And what would he think of American mutants fleeing across the border, because they'd rather be pressed into Canadian government super-service than hunted down by giant robotic purple-headed warriors or burned on crosses by the Church of (in)Humanity? Would be despise them for being willing to being humanity's servile cast in Canada, giving up the struggle for equal rights for an illusion of security?

What about the First Nations of Canada? Like modern-day Asatru, in a world where Thor *literally* walks the Earth, they've got a living example in Snowbird that their gods are very real, and that's got to have some sort of sociological / cultural impact!

Tons of story potential, just tying Canada into the greater 616 universe!

[Anduinel]

And it wasn't good either.

I think they need to find a good writer who respects Alpha as a whole, and not just one very small part of the large run.

Oh, agreed on all counts (though I have few complaints about the art). I'd also say they need a writer with an idea of how to make Alpha Flight stand out among the pack aside from "They're the Avengers' loser Canuck cousins".

Northstar and Aurora and Diamond Lil and Madison Jeffries and Wild Child are plentiful evidence that there are mutants in Canada, and yet Canada doesn't seem the sort of country that would build Sentinels (instead recruiting mutants willy-nilly for their Department H initiatives). What does Magneto think of that sort of 'backdoor draft' of mutant Canadians to serve and protect the non-mutant citizenry? And what would he think of American mutants fleeing across the border, because they'd rather be pressed into Canadian government super-service than hunted down by giant robotic purple-headed warriors or burned on crosses by the Church of (in)Humanity? Would be despise them for being willing to being humanity's servile cast in Canada, giving up the struggle for equal rights for an illusion of security?

Canada might actually still have a Superhero Registration Act on the books. I talk a little about how it might have been defanged and/or repealed here, but there's nothing to say it couldn't be resurrected.

[The_Greatest_Username]

You guys, I'm worried about Heather.

[Cold Water]

You guys, I'm worried about Heather.

I'm not.
Bye, Heather. I mourned her almost as soon as I started Mantlo's run. I'm done now. I think I've accepted the fact that she's just ruined.
So, if she goes, I don't know that I'll really care.

[Nomads1]

If she does go (which, honestly, I doubt), at least it'll be a change of pace from Mac, yet again, buying the farm.

Peace

[Adam-X]

Not too many vilains travel up to Canada. At least not without a good reason. I see what your getting at yet I would like to see new villains for AF of the caliber of Ultron.

Yes. Even so - something large scale, that brings in Avengers into Canada, and does some heavy damage - smacks them around - Alpha Flight joins the fight and is the team that brings the win. This way, we see someone/something beat the respectable Avengers, and having Alpha Flight be the team that brings the win would show some respect.

Sutekh mentioned The Master, which I agree - is Alpha Flight's version of Magneto to the X-Men, or perhaps more so Apocalypse, since his motives are always a bit unclear. And we have seen the Master fight the Avengers and deal them some damage. So that would be a nice example.

That could go both ways. The Master is a great villain, particularly with Plodex technology and minions, and could easily be the focus of an X-Men, Fantastic Four or Avengers arc (through Marrina, he's got pretty strong ties to Namor, for instance, who's been a major player in all three of those franchises, at various times, so a Plodex attack that threatens Atlantis could pull him in, and through him, any others he's currently hanging with). There's also the question of what happens to any Plodex survivors of such a battle. They are mostly mindless killing machines, but Marrina Smallwood is living proof, right there in your face, that *they don't have to be.* Can they be 'redeemed' or educated or 'mainstreamed,' or do they need to be locked away forever and ever (and which chucklehead antihero idiot with rivers of blood on their hands will be the first to hypocritically argue that they need to be killed?).

I like that.

The Great Beasts are supernatural god-like entities, no more or less suitable for invocations by bad-guy mystics than Dormammu (and 100% less dead and / or deposed than Dormammu!), or Satannish, or Set, or Cthon, or Shuma-Gorath. A loser villain selling out to extradimensional evil for a shot at not being a loser, like the Hood or Arcade or the Grim Reaper, or a pre-existing supernaturally-savvy foe like Baron Mordo, could draw upon them for various invocations, such as calling up the Living Flame of Tolomaq, or the Devouring Illusions of Ranaq, or empowering expendable mooks with the Savage Strength of Tanaraq (that may or may not burn them out and kill them in the process, but we don't hire expendable minions who can read the warning label, now do we?).

I think the Great Beasts are a great example. The first issue that brought Alpha Flight together, showed a massive threat. I like the idea of the other Great Beasts, but Alpha Flight beating them (typically easily, despite they all "died" once to save Walter's soul, if I remember correctly) - I thought them fighting one and having a time of it showed what a thread Tundra was.

Northstar and Aurora and Diamond Lil and Madison Jeffries and Wild Child are plentiful evidence that there are mutants in Canada, and yet Canada doesn't seem the sort of country that would build Sentinels (instead recruiting mutants willy-nilly for their Department H initiatives). What does Magneto think of that sort of 'backdoor draft' of mutant Canadians to serve and protect the non-mutant citizenry? And what would he think of American mutants fleeing across the border, because they'd rather be pressed into Canadian government super-service than hunted down by giant robotic purple-headed warriors or burned on crosses by the Church of (in)Humanity? Would be despise them for being willing to being humanity's servile cast in Canada, giving up the struggle for equal rights for an illusion of security?

I like how you think!

You guys, I'm worried about Heather.

I suspect Puck will listen to the voicemail and he and Talisman will appear just in time in issue #9.

If she does go (which, honestly, I doubt), at least it'll be a change of pace from Mac, yet again, buying the farm.

Peace

BWHAHAHAH! I like how you think too!

[Cold Water]

I read issues #40 and #41 last night.
I love how on a couple of occasions, I thought, "Oh, hey! Maybe Mantlo's run isn't so bad after all!" because he'd write Heather decently for a second, and then some stupid shit happened, immediately following that thought, and there it went.

For anyone who might not recall, issue #41 is the issue where Kara Killgrave (the purple girl) is introduced and she mind controls Northstar into being her teenage fantasy.

And this is what I am talking about: I was all happy to see what seemed like it was going to be a pretty good Northstar-centered issue.
Then Purple Girl happened.

[Anduinel]

I read issues #40 and #41 last night.
I love how on a couple of occasions, I thought, "Oh, hey! Maybe Mantlo's run isn't so bad after all!" because he'd write Heather decently for a second, and then some stupid shit happened, immediately following that thought, and there it went.

For anyone who might not recall, issue #41 is the issue where Kara Killgrave (the purple girl) is introduced and she mind controls Northstar into being her teenage fantasy.

And this is what I am talking about: I was all happy to see what seemed like it was going to be a pretty good Northstar-centered issue.
Then Purple Girl happened.

I wouldn't have minded Kara if people had treated her mind-control of Northstar as a serious violation. The act itself? OK, she was a teen girl in a bad headspace handed the keys to a pretty big-time power, and exercised piss-poor judgement. I could take that as a teenager being a teenager. But I had issues with the team's reaction to the whole thing, including brushing off Northstar's upset with a rape joke. And then Kara went on to be the Scrappy Doo of Alpha Flight.

Yeah, whole lot of Do Not Want there.

[Cold Water]

I wouldn't have minded Kara if people had treated her mind-control of Northstar as a serious violation. The act itself? OK, she was a teen girl in a bad headspace handed the keys to a pretty big-time power, and exercised piss-poor judgement. I could take that as a teenager being a teenager. But I had issues with the team's reaction to the whole thing, including brushing off Northstar's upset with a rape joke. And then Kara went on to be the Scrappy Doo of Alpha Flight.

Yeah, whole lot of Do Not Want there.

Exactly. Kara had the potential to be a character that could have been taken in, cared for, and helped.
And I cannot help but to wonder WHY Northstar was the character of choice for her to mind control. What would possess Mantlo to write that?
I didn't read beyond #41, but I will, and I felt so bad for JP.
And then just when I thought he was going to help her and things were going to be okay: NOPE. More mind control f*#kery occurred.
The ups and downs of Mantlo's run so far are so immediate that it's painful. Truly painful. There's no time to recover from one WTF Moment to the next.

[Sutekh]

Yes. Even so - something large scale, that brings in Avengers into Canada, and does some heavy damage - smacks them around - Alpha Flight joins the fight and is the team that brings the win. This way, we see someone/something beat the respectable Avengers, and having Alpha Flight be the team that brings the win would show some respect.

Marrina's Plodex ties, and the Master's tendency to use Plodex minions and / or Plodex alien super-tech in his plans, could lead to Marrina becoming the key to defeating him, as the machinery he's using to kick butt might recognize her Plodex DNA as being 'the master' and allow her to override his control of the tech, since he's just a human who figured out where the on-button was. Similarly, if he's designed some process that turns normal people into Plodex-infected minions, the Avengers might not be willing to just burn them down and a serum derived from Marrina's pure Plodex (with human elements) blood could hold the key to an actual cure for the infected people.

If the 'minions' are just helpless citizens, then it doesn't matter how fast Iron Man can blast them to death, or how many of them Wolverine can chop into chutney, because that's not the solution that is needed here, especially if the Master has spread the contagion in food, beer, etc. being exported all over the world. (Mwa ha ha! A Canadian plot involves contaminating Labatt's or Molsons, eh?)

I think the Great Beasts are a great example. The first issue that brought Alpha Flight together, showed a massive threat. I like the idea of the other Great Beasts, but Alpha Flight beating them (typically easily, despite they all "died" once to save Walter's soul, if I remember correctly) - I thought them fighting one and having a time of it showed what a thread Tundra was.

The Great Beasts have suffered hugely from Villain Decay.

My favorite recent-er appearance by a Great Beast was in the Exiles.

The Heather Hudson of some alternate universe is the Sasquatch of her world, and ends up in a world conquered by evil supernatural types including Kulan Gath (a sorcerer with world-altering Morgana Le Fey like levels of power) and Zarathos, the fiery skeletal demon behind the Ghost Rider's power. She's in her human form, and they are ranting about how easily they've won, and she just hangs her head and says softly, "I surrender." Zarathos scoffs at that, since they'd already won, and surrender wasn't an option for her, and wouldn't save her from what they had planned, and she looked up, "I wasn't talking to you."

She's just surrended to Tanaraq, which whom she'd been fighting for control for years, just giving up in the moment and allowing him to burst free in all his power. Zarathos says something about being a super-powerful demon lord, and Tanaraq just smashes him to fiery bony bits, saying something like, "Be silent demon, I am a *god!*"

Woo! Not a happy ending for anyone, but nice to see Tanaraq as the serious badass he can be, and given some serious respect.

Plus there's the Snowbird vs. Tolomaq fight, in the all white issue. She had to drop a mountain on him to win!