Let's go living in the past

[Lee Stone]

I wrote a rather strongly-worded rant on this subject, which I am now erasing and replacing with this much... calmer... comment.

You can say that "people who post on comics message boards tend to live in a distant past that comics publishers don't care about" and that "90% of comic readers" don't care about.

But the evidence seems to suggest that the DC publishers (editors, writers) either do care about the distant past, or believe that enough potential readers with enough potential money care about the distant past. Because, even as they reboot universes and discard continuity, they just keep going back to the same stories, tropes, villains by the metric ton, characters that even on their best days were considered minor, references, and Easter eggs.

A clear demonstration of this is Titans Hunt. The story (as seen so far, and intimated further) in no way follows naturally from the characters as they have been introduced in The New 52. Instead, it seems to be an editorially-dictated appeal to nostalgia: "We're getting the old gang (you remember the old gang) back together!" The fact that these are actually new characters, who do not have the backstories that made the old gang getting together make sense, is apparently not important. What's important is to create something that reminds readers of the old days, when they loved these characters. And then fill each issue with Easter eggs leading readers to say, "I remember that!" Pure nostalgia, with the plot (which may turn out to be very good, or very bad, I don't know) layered on top of it.

Add to that the Anti-Monitor, Barry Allen back from the dead, Jason Todd back from the dead, the GA Lois & Clark, and so on. It certainly seems that the publishers/editors/writers believe that more than 10% of the readers - more than just the few who post on message boards - will be attracted by constant references to the past. Either that, or the publishers/editors/writers are themselves quite caught up in that past. (Or, they don't want to put in the energy to do anything really new, so they keep doing modified rehashes of things they read when they were kids. But it would be rude to suggest that.)

I was struck by just how attached The New 52 creators were to the past, rather than truly developing new situations that grew organically out of the new world they had created, at an odd juncture: the new Hawkman they created. Different origin, different personality, etc. - but they still felt the need to (a) name him Katar Hol/Carter Hall, and (b) introduce him as having a secret identity as a well-respected Earth archeologist. Now, taken on its own terms, this doesn't make much sense - how does an amnesiac alien who crash-lands on Earth make himself, in a matter of a few years, into a well-respected archeologist? He has no credentials, no training, no university degree, no history on Earth - he's a space orphan. But I don't think it's intended to make sense within the story; it's intended to appeal to nostalgia, and generate the "oh, yeah, I remember!" response.

If they did it explain it at some point, with one of those contrived, off-hand deus ex machina explanations we tend to see in comics, I missed it. But in any case, it was appeal to the past first, explanation second, if at all.

(This doesn't work very well on me. I'm a continuity fan - which means that current DC comics are not written with me in mind - but I'm not nostalgic in the sense that I'd be tickled by these Easter eggs on their own. They don't really maintain continuity. In fact, they disrupt the continuity of the current DCU, and often don't make the stories better.)

I'm sure any of you can point to a dozen appeals to nostalgia of this form. I'm not sure who is asking for it (not me) - but obviously the DC creators think its a workable business strategy, or they just like it themselves. Does it work?

Can we pretend that this is the OP of the thread?
I like how you laid it all out there, voiced your opinions and left things open for other viewpoints.

In relation to your post, I was always perplexed that DC went with a reboot but didn't make any real changes.
Maybe if they had planned things out earlier, the New52 DCU would've been more different.

I, personally, think it would have been more interesting to reinterpret all the characters, ala Tangent.
Or even a new Silver Age... with a new Flash and Green Lantern for the modern age.

But even going into New52, it was still pretty nolstalgia-heavy. Costumes looked alot like pre-New52 costumes, power sets were still the same, secret identities were still the same... if you looked at Superman, Batman, Flash, Green Lantern or Wonder Woman from a distance or through blurry eyes they still looked the same.
People on deviantart have come up with more interesting redesigns that rely less on nolstalgia and look more new reader friendly, while still giving a nod to the past.

It's actually kinda ironic that Marvel looks more different after Secret Wars but didn't go through a reboot like DC.

[Nite-Wing]

I find it interesting too that the online comic community is so small now
People barely talk about DC's most popular books on the forums so I guess that kinda points to a dwindling community as I assume the people who actually buy the books don't really post on forums like CBR or SHH.

[Old Man Ollie 1962]

Can we pretend that this is the OP of the thread?
I like how you laid it all out there, voiced your opinions and left things open for other viewpoints.

In relation to your post, I was always perplexed that DC went with a reboot but didn't make any real changes.
Maybe if they had planned things out earlier, the New52 DCU would've been more different.

I, personally, think it would have been more interesting to reinterpret all the characters, ala Tangent.
Or even a new Silver Age... with a new Flash and Green Lantern for the modern age.

But even going into New52, it was still pretty nolstalgia-heavy. Costumes looked alot like pre-New52 costumes, power sets were still the same, secret identities were still the same... if you looked at Superman, Batman, Flash, Green Lantern or Wonder Woman from a distance or through blurry eyes they still looked the same.
People on deviantart have come up with more interesting redesigns that rely less on nolstalgia and look more new reader friendly, while still giving a nod to the past.

It's actually kinda ironic that Marvel looks more different after Secret Wars but didn't go through a reboot like DC.

What happened to Superman in Action Comics? Look at Wally West, JSA (no JSA), GA and the Hawks (no Hawks). Lee, that shit is messed up. "Costumes, power sets were still the same, secret identities." That ain't a humbug to me.

[Lee Stone]

What happened to Superman in Action Comics? Look at Wally West, JSA (no JSA), GA and the Hawks (no Hawks). Lee, that shit is messed up. "Costumes, power sets were still the same, secret identities." That ain't a humbug to me.

But it's like they just took the Pre-Flashpoint versions, erased their pasts and tweeked their look slightly.
With the exception of JSA, which was under some mysterious "we don't know what to do with them, since they couldn't have existed now" mandate originally.

Matter of fact, what they did with Earth-2 (when it began, at least) is more of what I would have expected from rebooting the whole DCU. Out of the entire New52, Earth-2 was the only title that really showed the full potential of rebooting.

Wally had already been downplayed ever since Barry came back. And I think the fact that Barry and the majority of the heroes came out of the reboot with only minor changes is what fuels the Wally fans the most. If it was, in truth, an entirely new vision of the DCU, they'd probably be more accepting of Wally's absence.

And Green Arrow and Hawkman, at the start of the New52, still looked very much like their old selves. At least on the outside.
Granted, Hawkman was Liefeld-ed up a bit.
Superman still looked like Pre-Flashpoint Superman in Superman and Justice League. He just lost his shorts.

But even characters that did look different, like Zatanna and Black Canary, were written to sound familiar to Pre-Flashpoint readers or fans.
DC had one foot in a new universe and one foot in the old.

While some old readers stayed on, they still lost several.
And while many new readers came on board, the similarities to the old universe (and vague ties to it) still confused some of them.
In hindsight, I wonder if it would have been best to have done the whole DCU like Earth-2 and risk losing all the old fans to give the new readers a more original (and complete) universe.

[Old Man Ollie 1962]

But it's like they just took the Pre-Flashpoint versions, erased their pasts and tweeked their look slightly.
With the exception of JSA, which was under some mysterious "we don't know what to do with them, since they couldn't have existed now" mandate originally.

Matter of fact, what they did with Earth-2 (when it began, at least) is more of what I would have expected from rebooting the whole DCU. Out of the entire New52, Earth-2 was the only title that really showed the full potential of rebooting.

Wally had already been downplayed ever since Barry came back. And I think the fact that Barry and the majority of the heroes came out of the reboot with only minor changes is what fuels the Wally fans the most. If it was, in truth, an entirely new vision of the DCU, they'd probably be more accepting of Wally's absence.

And Green Arrow and Hawkman, at the start of the New52, still looked very much like their old selves. At least on the outside.
Granted, Hawkman was Liefeld-ed up a bit.
Superman still looked like Pre-Flashpoint Superman in Superman and Justice League. He just lost his shorts.

But even characters that did look different, like Zatanna and Black Canary, were written to sound familiar to Pre-Flashpoint readers or fans.
DC had one foot in a new universe and one foot in the old.

While some old readers stayed on, they still lost several.
And while many new readers came on board, the similarities to the old universe (and vague ties to it) still confused some of them.
In hindsight, I wonder if it would have been best to have done the whole DCU like Earth-2 and risk losing all the old fans to give the new readers a more original (and complete) universe.

Who's your favorite character? And why? I want to assess your answers to better assess my answers to the question.

[phantom1592]

I think the WRITERS don't care about the distant past. The Fans are excited about the so-called 'return to the silver age' with Barry and Hal. The Publishers were fans of those characters growing up and are now in charge, so they push for the 'old' characters... The WRITERS however can't be bothered with reading anything they didn't write, so keep scrapping continuity and restarting history and then often times, and often times end up repeating the same stories over again.

Of course they do. Being on this site and any other site is proof. I'm sorry, can't live in the past. I'm all about the now. I don't think I've ever been nostalgic about anything.

Not even Ninjak? I'm surprised to see someone with no nostalgia for the past with a username from a minor character with a publication date of 1994-1997... As a Darkhawk fan I can relate, but I actually admit my nostalgia

[Starchild]

I think the WRITERS don't care about the distant past. The Fans are excited about the so-called 'return to the silver age' with Barry and Hal. The Publishers were fans of those characters growing up and are now in charge, so they push for the 'old' characters... The WRITERS however can't be bothered with reading anything they didn't write, so keep scrapping continuity and restarting history and then often times, and often times end up repeating the same stories over again.











Not even Ninjak? I'm surprised to see someone with no nostalgia for the past with a username from a minor character with a publication date of 1994-1997... As a Darkhawk fan I can relate, but I actually admit my nostalgia

Didn't read any Valiant comics from the 90's. I started when they came back. I'm glad that you admit to your nostalgia, good for you. But with me, there's nothing to admit. I have always been the type to look towards tomorrow.

[philosopop]

I think that people who go on reading comics for most of their lives have had many different experiences, and have read many many many comics. If the passion is big enough, they'll want to talk about it, and share/compare experiences. Therefore, attractors such as message boards and facebook groups are expected. Granted, most people who invest time in debating and discussing will do so for diverse reasons, but one thing can't be denied: they have a historical basis which to compare what is being written now. So, answering the question directly, I'd say that publishers work independently of what boards desire, but I don't think boards are completely overlooked.

[phantom1592]

Didn't read any Valiant comics from the 90's. I started when they came back. I'm glad that you admit to your nostalgia, good for you. But with me, there's nothing to admit. I have always been the type to look towards tomorrow.

This is interesting... I'd like to hear more about your story. How/when did you get into comics? Do you really not care at all about what happened the issue before.? Do you have the same the same philosophy with TV and movies? Can they just change cast and story direction and ignore key episodes and you really don't mind at all? Does every meeting between Superman and Lex Luthor have to be their FIRST meeting?




For myself, I've always believed that people latched on to their first experiences. Comics, movies, music, girls... Whichever was your introduction to the genre... That's what helped mold you. It's what is important. It's what you base other things against. Whether you like the original version of a song or movie... or whether you like the remake. It's usually whichever you saw/heard first.

Myself, I started in the early 90's, but I was also a big fan of 'where this came from.' What molded the then-current characters that I loved and ended up tracking down a lot of the silver age Green Lanterns and the Stan Lee Marvels. They were historically fascinating... but I still liked my 90's stuff better.

I have a very hard time wrapping my head around not caring about what came before? The rivalries, the relationships, the surprise twists and special reveals... If the past is erased or inconsequential.... then what the heck am I looking at? Why would I care?

I believe most of the anger and bitterness of 'old-timers' is that they have been following stories for decades (even Post-crisis didn't change much for many characters and Zero hour changed almost nothing) only to be told they don't count anymore. Your interest is irrelevant. NObody likes to be told they are irrelevant.

I'm definitely interested in hearing other viewpoints... How people look toward the future with no interest in had come before??? I don't understand that.

[colonyofcells]

There's no need to follow any of the continuity from 1938 to 2011 but even the oldest stories from 1938-1939 still influence the current superman and batman stories. I grew up during the bronze age with superman vs lex, batman vs joker, wonder woman, barry and hal who are still around in the new 52 and post convergence. In my own continuity inside my head, I still imagine Cyborg joining the JL later than superman, batman, ww, barry and hal.

[Starchild]

Judging by your post. You must think I'm new to the comic book world. Sorry to disappoint, but I've been reading comics all my life, since i was a kid. Started with Devin Grayson's Teen Titans & JSA. I have a appreciation with what came before. How can I not? I have tremendous for all continuities, especially the Golden Age. Those characters laid down the foundation we have today. Even though I honor what has came before me. Do I let it turn me into a bitter fanboy? No. Do I use nostalgia to put down fans who like something current? Nope. I appreciate the past, just not stuck in it. I've grown tired of older fans telling me that I'm not a true fan of something, because I like the rebooted version of a character. Fans like that are a problem on here.

This is interesting... I'd like to hear more about your story. How/when did you get into comics? Do you really not care at all about what happened the issue before.? Do you have the same the same philosophy with TV and movies? Can they just change cast and story direction and ignore key episodes and you really don't mind at all? Does every meeting between Superman and Lex Luthor have to be their FIRST meeting?




For myself, I've always believed that people latched on to their first experiences. Comics, movies, music, girls... Whichever was your introduction to the genre... That's what helped mold you. It's what is important. It's what you base other things against. Whether you like the original version of a song or movie... or whether you like the remake. It's usually whichever you saw/heard first.

Myself, I started in the early 90's, but I was also a big fan of 'where this came from.' What molded the then-current characters that I loved and ended up tracking down a lot of the silver age Green Lanterns and the Stan Lee Marvels. They were historically fascinating... but I still liked my 90's stuff better.

I have a very hard time wrapping my head around not caring about what came before? The rivalries, the relationships, the surprise twists and special reveals... If the past is erased or inconsequential.... then what the heck am I looking at? Why would I care?

I believe most of the anger and bitterness of 'old-timers' is that they have been following stories for decades (even Post-crisis didn't change much for many characters and Zero hour changed almost nothing) only to be told they don't count anymore. Your interest is irrelevant. NObody likes to be told they are irrelevant.

I'm definitely interested in hearing other viewpoints... How people look toward the future with no interest in had come before??? I don't understand that.

I may be PRO-New 52, but make no mistake. There's plenty I miss from the Pre-52 universe: Cassandra Cain, The Outsiders, Damage, Jesse Quick, etc...I just don't focus on it too much.

[colonyofcells]

I think a good way to respect the golden age is to reboot them for the current age such as solo titles for Zatanna, Power Girl Karen, Huntress Bertinelli, Dr Fate, Spectre, Michael Holt, Black Canary, Starman, Wildcat, robotman, firebrand, tarantula, manhunter, airwave, steel the indestructible man, iron munro, fury helena kosmatos, tsunami, Ray, Black Condor, plastic man, etc.

[MajorHoy]

Judging by your post. You must think I'm new to the comic book world. Sorry to disappoint, but I've been reading comics all my life, since i was a kid. Started with Devin Grayson's Teen Titans & JSA.

You were starting to sound a lot older until that "Devin Grayson" part. That was, what, the late 1990s?

[Starchild]

You were starting to sound a lot older until that "Devin Grayson" part. That was, what, the late 1990s?

That doesn't make me any less of a fan. I'm not trying to earn a spot at the cool kids table. I just love comics, that's all.

[colonyofcells]

There does seem to still exist some customers from pre flashpoint who are not happy with the current age (mostly fans of pre flashpoint Wally West maybe).