Teen Titans and other Legacy Characters. What to do about them?

[Masterff]

Or they could just be the voice of youth.
Doing things differently because they're more in tune with social change and the possibilty of a better tomorrow.
While the League could be slightly cynical and more concerned with maintaining order as it is, forever thinking that things will always be the way they are.

YES!

Another thing which I would like is that they are closer to the People than the "untouchable" JL.

I personally would give more room to the Tim,Bart,Conner,Cassie Generation, because they are the only generation who have ALL BIG 4:
Super-Family (Conner)
Wonder-Family (Cassie)
Bat-Family (Tim)
Flash-Family (Bart)

I like the idea how it was in the animated Series YJ where Superman,Wonder Woman....etc. went into space and left the young team behind who took care of the earth.

I also like the idea that the 4 are closer to each other than the Titans and JL, because Cassie and Conner are a couple, Cassie not having much family (only mother and probably Diana, depending on the Version), Conner also (yes he has Clark,Lois and Jon and technically also the Luthor Family, but its kind of strange), Bart also (yes Iris,Barry and Wally, but rest of family is in the future), Tim (yes he has Bruce,Dick etc. but rest of family is dead)...
So I can also see them as family with Cassie and Conner as couple and Tim and Bart as their brothers...

[Restingvoice]

So I was rereading the final arc of TT vol 3, and I came across this image.



Aquagirl - Lorena
Argent
Blue Beetle - Jamie Reyes
Bombshell
Bumblebee
Flamebird
Hot Spot
Mirage
Miss Martian
Offspring
Prysm
Red Star
Robin - Damian Wayne
Speedy - Mia Dearden
Supergirl - Kara Zor-El
Vox
Zatara - Zachary (cousin of Zatanna)

Plus the main members of this era.


Beast Boy
Kid Flash - Bart Allen
Ravager V - Rose Wilson
Raven
Red Robin - Tim Drake
Solstice
Superboy - Conner Kent
Wonder Girl - Cassandra Sandsmark



What I noticed, and have known for a long time, is that there are a lot of legacy/copy cat characters running around. Not only with similar powers and skills but also (with respect to the Robins, Arrows, Flashes and Wonder Girls) wearing the same costumes as their predecessors. Before New 52 TT came along with their Tron Legacy inspired costumes, most of the vol 3's main cast wore nearly identical cloths as the NTT cast and had the same set of powers as the NTT cast.




Then you have things like the 4 bow and arrow Titans/YJ members: Roy Harper(Speedy/Arsenal/Red Arrow), Mia Dearden (Speedy 2nd), Artemis Crock (Artemis, not the be confused with either the goddess or Amazon), Suzanne King-Jones (Arrowette).


I know legacies are going to exist, but just looking at the Titans and comparing them to the rosters of the JLA, LOSH and JSA, there doesn't seem to be much variety. That and the power set (main stay rosters) seems to be a constant reuse of the same abilities or someone with something similar. E.g. substituting Superboy for Starfire.


What should be done to either decrease the number of legacies or make them different enough from their predecessors?

Stop using NTT as a crutch and make good stories.

Young Justice is a good example of creating a new generation of Teen Titans that's as successful as NTT.

When Geoff Johns came and fold Young Justice to Teen Titans, giving Bart Kid Flash costume and Cassie's written like a more typical feminine teenage girl, they lost their unique flavor, especially with half of NTT crew on the book.

The reason they have similar powers, costume, even villains is because everything in DC is a brand. Justice League rarely changes their roster, so they don't lose anything if their villains stay the same, like Legion of Doom or Injustice League.

Teen Titans grow up yet DC always want to keep them vaguely similar with their most popular iteration. The NTT. So they not only bring back the costume but also the villains. Trigon. Deathstroke. Psimon. Brother Blood.

Then true to form, when the TT doesn't use that popular timeless version, sales go lower, or they rely on their most popular members of the team, usually the Robins, to carry the title.

So stopping using an NTT paint over is not enough, since people do like the NTT image especially after the TT cartoon, so they also need to have a good story and distinct design and personality like Young Justice and keep them that way.

[Masterff]

Stop using NTT as a crutch and make good stories.

Young Justice is a good example of creating a new generation of Teen Titans that's as successful as NTT.

When Geoff Johns came and fold Young Justice to Teen Titans, giving Bart Kid Flash costume and Cassie's written like a more typical feminine teenage girl, they lost their unique flavor, especially with half of NTT crew on the book.

The reason they have similar powers, costume, even villains is because everything in DC is a brand. Justice League rarely changes their roster, so they don't lose anything if their villains stay the same, like Legion of Doom or Injustice League.

Teen Titans grow up yet DC always want to keep them vaguely similar with their most popular iteration. The NTT. So they not only bring back the costume but also the villains. Trigon. Deathstroke. Psimon. Brother Blood.

Then true to form, when the TT doesn't use that popular timeless version, sales go lower, or they rely on their most popular members of the team, usually the Robins, to carry the title.

So stopping using an NTT paint over is not enough, since people do like the NTT image especially after the TT cartoon, so they also need to have a good story and distinct design and personality like Young Justice and keep them that way.

I personally have to say that I enjoyed Johns NTT more than I like the actual YJ.

I liked Bart as Kid Flash more than I like him as Impulse now, because Impulse is over the top for me, I enjoyed him as Kid Flash more because he was more balanced, showed that he was responsable, showed that he can become the Flash one day, showed that he was very intelligent etc.

You can critizise the change in personalities, but in general the TT are my favorite interpretations of Cassie,Conner,Bart,Tim..... because they became more powerful,more responsable....fought bigger villains and shwed that they can replace their mentors one day.

[Godlike13]

Stop using NTT as a crutch and make good stories.

Young Justice is a good example of creating a new generation of Teen Titans that's as successful as NTT.

When Geoff Johns came and fold Young Justice to Teen Titans, giving Bart Kid Flash costume and Cassie's written like a more typical feminine teenage girl, they lost their unique flavor, especially with half of NTT crew on the book.

The reason they have similar powers, costume, even villains is because everything in DC is a brand. Justice League rarely changes their roster, so they don't lose anything if their villains stay the same, like Legion of Doom or Injustice League.

Teen Titans grow up yet DC always want to keep them vaguely similar with their most popular iteration. The NTT. So they not only bring back the costume but also the villains. Trigon. Deathstroke. Psimon. Brother Blood.

Then true to form, when the TT doesn't use that popular timeless version, sales go lower, or they rely on their most popular members of the team, usually the Robins, to carry the title.

So stopping using an NTT paint over is not enough, since people do like the NTT image especially after the TT cartoon, so they also need to have a good story and distinct design and personality like Young Justice and keep them that way.

YJ wasn’t even close to as successful as NTT. Not that I’m saying it wasn’t good, but it’s also not necessarily that proven benchmark for success either. Though your overall point is fair. Yet easier said then done.

Though to be fair the last Titan series went to the Fab 5, and that turned out rather terrible. That team was very derivative. What I think the OP was saying, was not that they should redo NTT again, but maybe take a page from NTTs and don’t go with so many legacy characters, or at least try to make the legacy characters less derivative then. Which again, going back to the last Titan series and it’s awfulness, is maybe not a bad idea.

BTW you guys are responding to stuff that was posted 4 years ago.

[Tzigone]

Young Justice is a good example of creating a new generation of Teen Titans that's as successful as NTT.

Agree with above poster. I liked YJ, but it didn't come close, in either sales or influence, to NTT in the pre-COIE years.

When Geoff Johns came and fold Young Justice to Teen Titans, giving Bart Kid Flash costume and Cassie's written like a more typical feminine teenage girl, they lost their unique flavor, especially with half of NTT crew on the book.

They absolutely never should have mixed the teams. And having Tim ever lead any of the old ones on a team regularly (at least before adulthood) was also a problem, IMO. YJ folks got re-written in a bad way by Johns, IMO. Well, Tim had other influences in damaging his character, greatly, IMO, but I know others like the brooding mini-Bats version of him. Also, they should have let Raven and Gar grow up. One of the big deals about NTT was that the characters grew. Donna even got married. Life changed. But then they couldn't let that happen for the rest of the crew. And Donna, well, the less said about what DC did to her after, the better.

Teen Titans grow up yet DC always want to keep them vaguely similar with their most popular iteration. The NTT. So they not only bring back the costume but also the villains. Trigon. Deathstroke. Psimon. Brother Blood.

You won't hear me disagreeing. I do think part of it that new villains are hard. And people like to see the villains they like. I mean, all the others have their own rogues that re-appear over and over and over again, too. Problem is that, due the arc-centric early days of NTT, Trigon and Brother Blood were, to me, villains/arc that had to end, rather than those that could come back over and over and over again. I never liked Deathstroke anyway, so I'm not in a position to comment there.

I think the problem with NTT is that it was so popular, they keep trying to do it over and over again. The same or similar characters with the same of similar stories. It's a hamster wheel, especially for Raven and Cyborg, who are doomed to keep repeating the same stories/themes over and over without getting to really progress. I don't mind the team name switching to Titans and the team staying together, really. Lots of adults have teams. But the characters need to be allowed to grow up. But DC doesn't want growing up, so we're kinda stuck. But honestly, the repeating storylines with them has been an issue, IMO, since the late 1980s.

[king81992]

Agree with above poster. I liked YJ, but it didn't come close, in either sales or influence, to NTT in the pre-COIE years.

They absolutely never should have mixed the teams. And having Tim ever lead any of the old ones on a team regularly (at least before adulthood) was also a problem, IMO. YJ folks got re-written in a bad way by Johns, IMO. Well, Tim had other influences in damaging his character, greatly, IMO, but I know others like the brooding mini-Bats version of him. Also, they should have let Raven and Gar grow up. One of the big deals about NTT was that the characters grew. Donna even got married. Life changed. But then they couldn't let that happen for the rest of the crew. And Donna, well, the less said about what DC did to her after, the better.

You won't hear me disagreeing. I do think part of it that new villains are hard. And people like to see the villains they like. I mean, all the others have their own rogues that re-appear over and over and over again, too. Problem is that, due the arc-centric early days of NTT, Trigon and Brother Blood were, to me, villains/arc that had to end, rather than those that could come back over and over and over again. I never liked Deathstroke anyway, so I'm not in a position to comment there.

I think the problem with NTT is that it was so popular, they keep trying to do it over and over again. The same or similar characters with the same of similar stories. It's a hamster wheel, especially for Raven and Cyborg, who are doomed to keep repeating the same stories/themes over and over without getting to really progress. I don't mind the team name switching to Titans and the team staying together, really. Lots of adults have teams. But the characters need to be allowed to grow up. But DC doesn't want growing up, so we're kinda stuck. But honestly, the repeating storylines with them has been an issue, IMO, since the late 1980s.

The old villains are fine, but the comics don't give most of them defined personalities.Out of the Titans rogues only Slade and Trigon have personalities in the comics.

Psimon and the Fearsome Five, and Brother Blood all had defined personalities in the cartoons but those traits haven't been translated to the comics yet.

[Rac7d*]

The old villains are fine, but the comics don't give most of them defined personalities.Out of the Titans rogues only Slade and Trigon have personalities in the comics.

Psimon and the Fearsome Five, and Brother Blood all had defined personalities in the cartoons but those traits haven't been translated to the comics yet.

What about Cheshire? Terra? Blackfire

[Restingvoice]

I personally have to say that I enjoyed Johns NTT more than I like the actual YJ.

I liked Bart as Kid Flash more than I like him as Impulse now, because Impulse is over the top for me, I enjoyed him as Kid Flash more because he was more balanced, showed that he was responsable, showed that he can become the Flash one day, showed that he was very intelligent etc.

You can critizise the change in personalities, but in general the TT are my favorite interpretations of Cassie,Conner,Bart,Tim..... because they became more powerful,more responsable....fought bigger villains and shwed that they can replace their mentors one day.

To be honest, I prefer the TT personality too because that's how I was introduced to the trio. I prefer calmer Kon than celebrity Kon for example, but here I prioritize differentiation since the question was how to make the group unique. So if that's the goal, then regardless of what I personally want, that's what I'd do.

As for the success of YJ, I wasn't talking about financial success, but more about how much the group grabs my attention compared to other iteration of young heroes beside NTT. They stand out.

[king81992]

What about Cheshire? Terra? Blackfire

Cheshire barely shows up in the comics and I'm not that familiar with her character. From what little I've read she comes across as a typical Dragon Lady/ temptress character. Comics Cheshire lacks the family connection(since DC killed off Lian and Roy and I'm not even sure if she's related to Sportsmaster and Artemis in the comics) that YJ Cheshire has and that makes her one dimensional in the comics.

Terra's entire situation is kind of weird. Wolfman wrote her to be unlikable and irredeemable as possible but she didn't feel like an actual character. She was more of a plot device to screw over the Titans and used as a scapegoat to whitewash Slade, who Wolfman stupidly decided to push as an anti hero. Terra doesn't become an actual character until she starts popping up in cartoons. Her arcs in the 2003 cartoon(best version of Judas Contract in my opinion) and that awful movie with Damian made her character more realistic.

Currently, Terra's personality varies depending on the author. New 52 and Earth One versions were the 2003 cartoon version minus Slade's toxic influence and lack of control over her powers. Priest writes Terra as a jerk who became that way because of Slade's influence. The trait that seems common to most incarnations of Terra is being extremely outspoken and that's why YJ Terra feels really weird to me. I think that Terra has a lot of untapped potential as a character but for that potential to be unlocked, a lot of things have to happen at DC comics.

Blackfire was originally written as a bad person with an inferiority complex(because she couldn't fly)who made harsh decisions to save her people. Her personality stayed the same, the only difference is that she can fly now and is more open about trolling Starfire. What I find interesting is that Blackfire has never become a big player on the cosmic level of DC universe, she has the ambition for it but it never actually happens.

[Tzigone]

Cheshire barely shows up in the comics and I'm not that familiar with her character. From what little I've read she comes across as a typical Dragon Lady/ temptress character. Comics Cheshire lacks the family connection(since DC killed off Lian and Roy and I'm not even sure if she's related to Sportsmaster and Artemis in the comics) that YJ Cheshire has and that makes her one dimensional in the comics.

No, she's not related to them in the comics. Early comics!Cheshire had her own trope - extreme compartmentalization. She called herself "Cheshire" when working and "Jade" while with Lian, and wanted very much to keep those aspects of her life separate. It's one reason I could never buy that she'd raise Lian an assassin - she kept those parts of her life separate. After she had a fight with Nightwing and Roy and fled while leaving Lian behind in the apartment (that they were in - Roy had come to get his child), she told her companion to call her "Cheshire" rather than "Jade." I thought that was indicative of her leaving Lian, and that part of her life behind her (possibly because Roy had proven himself worthy of Lian by fighting for her?). Then she she got arrested and didn't show up again for several years.

I have read little of the later stuff with her, but she seems to have lost that compartmentalization aspect later. Also, earlier Roy was not hung up on her. He told her that he had loved her, but he told everyone else (including baby!Lian when no one else was in the room) that he hadn't. Not sure if he was lying to Cheshire, them or himself, to be honest. But she was definitely much more emotional about him than he was about her. Furious at the betrayal/deception, and out for revenge. Later Cheshire seemed to hold much more emotional import to him, from the little I've read.

[Aahz]

What about Cheshire? Terra? Blackfire

- Cheshire is not really a credible thread for the whole team, If she pops up inn stories it is sually about her realation with Arsenal.
- Terra died at the end of Judas contract, and all Terras that poped up afterwards weren't villains
- Blackfire is Kory's villain, stories with her as main villain are usually heavily focused on Kory, and there is not much reason for her to pop up when Kory is not part of the team (especially since Blackfire is not active on Earth, and the Titans have in the incarnations post NTT rarely been in space).

[Starter Set]

Zatara and Zachary? Damn, i sure as all had forgot about those two lol.

[Blue22]

Lol Damn. I really am in the minority who loves what Johns did with both the Teen Titans and the YJ team (though I admit there are some biases since those were some of my very first comics).

I liked how he attempted to mature both teams while not completely turning them into different people (well...except for Conner. But I liked that version of him too). It felt natural to me. Especially with the older TT's (Gar and Kory in particular) moving into leadership positions.

I dunno. I see where folks who don't like it are coming from (especially with the YJ team). But I think a lot of the changes that run made were for the better. Watching them all grow up, seeing how different they've become since their start. It's one of the reasons I like reading about young heroes in the first place.