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  1. #1
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    Default Julias Schwartz versus Stan Lee

    Not a fight! Who's more important to the the development of US comics? The Father of the Silver Age or The Father of of the Marvel Age? Lee is certainly the better known of the two and was by far the better promoter of his "brand" but he only had twelve books a month coming out due do to contractual restrictions. Ont he other hand Lee's signature creation the Fantastic Four? Very much derived from the Challengers of the Unknown book Kirby did while at DC and the the whole "Bickering team led by by the brilliant but emotionally distant leader" thing was already being done about a year earlier DC in the Metal Men.
    Last edited by Tanrage; 11-26-2015 at 10:05 PM.

  2. #2
    The Tentacle God Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh's Avatar
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    Stan the Man, Lee.

    Julias Schwartz was important, but he's not a household name by any stretch of the imagination.
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    But that's mostly because Julias wasn't the relentless self-promoter that Stan was. I'm not saying that in a disparaging way, putting aface on the product was a very important part of creating the Marvel Brand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanrage View Post
    But that's mostly because Julias wasn't the relentless self-promoter that Stan was. I'm not saying that in a disparaging way, putting aface on the product was a very important part of creating the Marvel Brand.
    Just answered your own question.
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    Being better at self-promotion doesn't make you you more important and there's more than one way to build a Brand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanrage View Post
    Being better at self-promotion doesn't make you you more important and there's more than one way to build a Brand.
    But if Stan Lee's promotion helped build Marvel into a household name, and he created some if the most iconic superheroes, who are now the most popular creations in the world...

    Yes, it does.

    You answered your own question.
    "... and when the Golden Toad started to sing, there was no turning back." - grampagen (Ochazuke)

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    Schwartz revived a dying genre by reinventing forgotten heroes for a new decade. The sole reason that Marvel published FF#1 was because the owners of the two companies got together for a game of golf and DC's Boss bragged about how well the Justice League of America was selling. No Schwartz, no superhero revival, no superhero revival then no Marvel Age.

  8. #8

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    According to a recent interview with Marvels 80s Editor in Chief; Jim Shooter (and not the way he said it exactly):
    "Marvel Comics were on the verge of bankruptcy in the 70s, while DC characters were a household names. Roy Thomas saved the company by Star War comics."

    On that end, Julius is more important to the industry.
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  9. #9
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    Stan Lee wasn't exactly at the helm at that point, there buddy.

    Regardless, Julias isn't a household name, Stan Lee and Marvel are. Ultimately you have your answer.

    As an aside, can I call you Mr. DC? You've got a lotta DC er.. Stuff.
    "... and when the Golden Toad started to sing, there was no turning back." - grampagen (Ochazuke)

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    You're equating being more well known with being more important and they're not the same thing at all. one is perception, the other is reality, sometimes they overlap, sometimes they don't.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh View Post
    Stan Lee wasn't exactly at the helm at that point, there buddy.

    Regardless, Julias isn't a household name, Stan Lee and Marvel are. Ultimately you have your answer.
    Stan is a household name because you see his name on everything Marvel related; 'Stan Lee Presents'.
    And he is the king of cameos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh View Post
    As an aside, can I call you Mr. DC? You've got a lotta DC er.. Stuff.
    LOL, go ahead.
    I read (past tense) more Marvel than DC, balancing them out is work in progress.
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  12. #12
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    I have to agree, being important is not the same thing as being more well known. Not many laymen know who Dennis Ritchie and Douglas Engelbart are compared to Steve Jobs and Bill Gates, but the latter would be nothing without the inventions and contributions of the former.

  13. #13
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    Stan Lee is more famous, so most people will simply pick him. it's easier to answer a simple question "who is more famous" than it is to answer a more complex one "who was a bigger influence in shaping the world of modern comics as we know it?"

    it's easy to pick Stan. Stan worked relentlessly to make himself a household name and attached his name to a LOT of stories. (whether he wrote them or not)

    honestly, I couldn't pick between the two. I don't think Schwartz' influence on Batman and Superman should be underestimated. Schwartz also edited the work of a LOT of important writers. the "multi-verse", as we now commonly think of it, can be attributed to the influence of Schwartz. I wanted to answer "Stan Lee, of course". but when I actually started thinking about all the comics that Schwartz had an influence over it was more difficult to decide.

    by the time Lee was really starting to come into his own Schwartz was already one the most influential people in DC comics. Stan Lee also gets credit for any title he put his name on. some of the most interesting and startling ideas from Marvel could be given to Ditko and Kirby as much as Stan Lee.

    for me it's like comparing Dwight Eisenhower to Aleksandr Vasilevsky. obviously the first guy is more famous in America and Europe-- but the second guy is no less important to the outcome of World War 2. actually, I think you could reasonably argue that Vasilevsky was more important to the outcome of WW2: his influence on events started earlier and he's connected to a larger number of decisive battles in Eastern Europe and Asia-- which had much larger long-term consequences.

    I'm sure that somebody else will have something better to say later and correct me on any mistakes.

  14. #14
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    No, really , no

    Stan Lee is a household name because he created Thor, Hulk , the Avengers , the X men , the FF and of course the 3rd most popular comic hero ever SpiderMan

    The original Spider man and especially FF runs changed comics as we know them

    Stan Lee basically created a company that could equal or better DC comics for decades and now dominate 80% of the market together (without even going to movies and tv) m

    Marvels been near bankruptcy several times . The last time the freakin Onslaught saga saved them . Is that more important than Stan Lee?

    Fact is , Image came and went . Captain Marvel came and went . Only marvel stayed . Only marvel can claim to be the equal of DC in American comics history . You can say Thomas saved the company . You can say Claremont turned it into a cash cow . You can claim Robert Downey Jr. turned them into pop culture icons

    Fact is , none of that exists without Stan Lee and the characters he created

    If Schwartz had managed to wipe out Marvel as company something like wrestlings Monday night wars then you might have had a point but even then the FF Lee -Kirby run alone would be considered one of the greatest comic runs regardless . Lee simply did better stories

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totoro Man View Post
    Stan Lee is more famous, so most people will simply pick him. it's easier to answer a simple question "who is more famous" than it is to answer a more complex one "who was a bigger influence in shaping the world of modern comics as we know it?"

    it's easy to pick Stan. Stan worked relentlessly to make himself a household name and attached his name to a LOT of stories. (whether he wrote them or not)

    honestly, I couldn't pick between the two. I don't think Schwartz' influence on Batman and Superman should be underestimated. Schwartz also edited the work of a LOT of important writers. the "multi-verse", as we now commonly think of it, can be attributed to the influence of Schwartz. I wanted to answer "Stan Lee, of course". but when I actually started thinking about all the comics that Schwartz had an influence over it was more difficult to decide.

    by the time Lee was really starting to come into his own Schwartz was already one the most influential people in DC comics. Stan Lee also gets credit for any title he put his name on. some of the most interesting and startling ideas from Marvel could be given to Ditko and Kirby as much as Stan Lee.

    for me it's like comparing Dwight Eisenhower to Aleksandr Vasilevsky. obviously the first guy is more famous in America and Europe-- but the second guy is no less important to the outcome of World War 2. actually, I think you could reasonably argue that Vasilevsky was more important to the outcome of WW2: his influence on events started earlier and he's connected to a larger number of decisive battles in Eastern Europe and Asia-- which had much larger long-term consequences.

    I'm sure that somebody else will have something better to say later and correct me on any mistakes.
    I'd largely agree with that except as an Editor as opposed to even the guy who just scribbled down dialogue to fill in whatever Kirby had put in the story , Schwartz had an even lesser role than Lee in the stories

    Besides that , Scwartz arguably defined only one single character or two if you prefer : silver age superman and silver age Batman

    Lee's FF are largely still the same characters . Lee's "relatable down on his luck" hero Spiderman is still pretty much the same . Thor , Hulk are still largely the same . Of course characters like Daredevil have changed significantly from Lee's version

    In DC, meanwhile almost none of the characters bear any resemblance to Schwartz' versions of the same

    I'm not saying its for better or worse , but it is what it is :many of Lee's creations are still pretty much the same characters they started out as . But the Silver age is gone , and DC has changed drastically since Schwartz' time and someone like say Batman is best known for being a dark gritty hero as opposed to what was basically the Adam West version at that time

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