Goku vs. Phoenix

[Farealmer]

There's a tendency for DBZ folks to argue using ABC logic, calculations and other things that are widely unacceptable as feats.

You mean like things used for almost every speed calc(and many other aspects such as damage, durability) in almost every anime ever. From Kenshiro to Naruto to Gatch Bell which is then not only used but accepted without challenge or question 99% of the time.

[Dalak]

You mean like things used for almost every speed calc(and many other aspects such as damage, durability) in almost every anime ever. From Kenshiro to Naruto to Gatch Bell which is then not only used but accepted without challenge or question 99% of the time.

Considering the past, I strongly disagree with the bolded.

I also don't recall anyone using calcs to try and show Kenshiro could keep up with Superman based on feats from other FoTNS characters either, but admittedly this is an outrageous example meant as comedic exaggeration.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Considering the past, I strongly disagree with the bolded.

You'd be right.

I also don't recall anyone using calcs to try and show Kenshiro could keep up with Superman based on feats from other FoTNS characters either, but admittedly this is an outrageous example meant as comedic exaggeration.

Nawp.

[Farealmer]

Considering the past, I strongly disagree with the bolded.

Ah yes I remember the Rock lee stuff now. OK then how about the Claymore, One Piece, and Bleach stuff that I don't recall such happening. The point was DBZ is the only one for which everything including the Beerus planet busting, which IIRC you needed a mod ruling to accept, has been questioned. Infact I don't think I've ever recalled a DBZ feat that hasn't been questioned to death at some point or another.

Good catch on Naruto though, it's been so long I forgot about the whole Rock Lee bullet timer debate.

I also don't recall anyone using calcs to try and show Kenshiro could keep up with Superman based on feats from other FoTNS characters either

Why would they? And before you point out again it was meant as exaggeration, their was a person on here just recently that argued that very thing and was shouted down for it. Now Toriko characters on the otherhand...

[Nik Hasta]

As like... the anime/manga speed breakdown guy, for lack of a better term, around here - I feel like I should chime in.

Speed algorithms are not ABC logic. They are chains of feats that go up in scale. ABC logic is applying feats to other characters who are purported to be on the same level. DBZ runs into this a bit because of powerlevels and the scale of feats not quite being as neat as people would like.

DBZ doesn't, honestly, get a lot of backlash on speed these days to be honest. The problem is that the speed algorithm for DBZ is so long and goes all the way back to Dragonball, that people honestly can find a lot of wiggle room in figuring out how fast the top tiers actually are.

Heck, this is why the Gotenks circling the Earth feat was such a big thing a while back, because it was something high end and kind of quantifiable for us to work with that didn't involve the looser sequence of comparative feats that goes on /forever/ that DBZ has.

Anyhow, speed algorithms are fine but you have to treat them loose because most series are kind of loose.

[Farealmer]

It's not just speed. While I certainly haven't seen all the recent stuff even on other shonen series you get characters being put at x level because they beat down y, z power ups ago. And I find that fine, we use that with characters from all mediums. It's the whole "when DBZ does it it's bad" thing that gets me. When we use it for DC it's fine, when we use it for most anime it's fine, when we use it for DBZ it's not fine.

Then everything up to how big the universe is is questioned. It's not that the DBZ folks are the problem either(by which I mean Cody, Hazard, etc the reasonable ones) its the guys that come into these just to say how much they hate this or that feat thus starting a side debate on that, the guys that seem to have no interest in DBZ other than making sure they don't get a planck unit more credit then *they* think it should have with all the fun mod ruling crap needed, and the guys that just come in to make nonsensical posts that pad the post count. Then they all turn around and say "look at all the posts, typical dbz thread amirightguise". It's an obvious self fulfilling prophecy that no one ever takes responsibility for.

Then again it's not the first time I brought this up and it won't be the last.

[The Drunkard Kid]

I will point out that part of the reason it's easier to use comparative stats to gain a general idea of how powerful DB/Z and other manga/anime characters are compared to DC/Marvel/etc... is because, due to the fact that they're written by mostly one person and are usually designed to end at some point, they tend to be a lot more internally consistent in terms of portrayal since they don't have to deal with decades of backstory for hundreds/thousands of characters, over dozens of titles, by a truly ridiculous number of writers and artists that each have their interpretation of the characters, intended to continue on more or less forever, if at all possible.

[Son Of Sparda]

Goku would blitz her before getting TPd.

Assuming she has a physical body, Goku.

[The Dork Knight]

I think last time we talked about it many people thought the Phoenix Buster was actually an outlier for Stark.

Anyway, we are talking about the strongest incarnation, aka this one
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...4932-17344.jpg

So yeah, she definitely has enough Awareness.

Yeah that's the one I was talking about . Niice feat but iirc all she did in the end was have the woman she hated make out with her husband at her funeral to reverse the future ;p

[The Dork Knight]

Shaking
And last time I checked there were still 2 parties involved, with Beerus being significantly stronger.

No, really . The ruling makes the feat valid . The feat isn't just shaking ,it's flat out threatening to bust the universe were Beerus not cancelling his efforts , to the point where said effect is seen seeping through to another dimension

But anyway, I've said my part, I still don't think Goku has anything on the PF.
I'm resigning.

Cool, and ultimately if it's the PF proper , Id agree . If its one of the hosts ...not so much .

Still who would have thunk the day would come when Goku could legitimately pose a threat to the Phoenix force or even its hosts ?

that's a scenario nobody could have predicted even a year ago ...

[Dalak]

Ah yes I remember the Rock lee stuff now. OK then how about the Claymore, One Piece, and Bleach stuff that I don't recall such happening. The point was DBZ is the only one for which everything including the Beerus planet busting, which IIRC you needed a mod ruling to accept, has been questioned. Infact I don't think I've ever recalled a DBZ feat that hasn't been questioned to death at some point or another.

Good catch on Naruto though, it's been so long I forgot about the whole Rock Lee bullet timer debate.

Yes, I remember claiming the planets weren't Earth sized thanks to them passing in front of a Space Tree that was clearly not that planetary in size when in close-up shots. I also remember being mocked for bringing up the advanced scientific principals behind drinking through a straw regarding Frieza bleeding in space by otherwise reasonable posters. Still, I'm sure there were times when particularly excited fans of every anime made Vs Superman threads and tried to defend their positions in ways that get them shouted down, however there wasn't as much pushback resulting in the creation of a Megathread to contain those issues. Like it or not, enough bad apples poison the well of public opinion. It's sad when it affects undeserving beliefs and cultures in real life, but I don't find much to move me when it comes to fans of this or that fiction on any web forum getting feats challenged. Calcs have ultimately been poisoned by several sources too, that's not a DBZ only thing there.

Asking me about Anime I know little-to-nothing of, nor read any threads of will net you no answers I'm afraid. I'd have to ask how many of these anime are claiming lightspeed or FTL reactions as that's usually when the major questioning begins from my personal experience.

Why would they? And before you point out again it was meant as exaggeration, their was a person on here just recently that argued that very thing and was shouted down for it. Now Toriko characters on the otherhand...

I think I read the thread you are mentioning, it seemed to be "Superman isn't really that fast in a fight, he gets hit all the time" rather than my jokey statement.

[Farealmer]

It's sad when it affects undeserving beliefs and cultures in real life, but I don't find much to move me when it comes to fans of this or that fiction on any web forum getting feats challenged.

The issue here is that several reasonable posters have been making great headway in restoring DBZ to code. Only to have all their work be all to gleefully undone by other regulars here when the any kind of random fanboy blows through rumbles making stupid claims. Something that doesn't happen with any other major series on here(by major I mean having at least one thread with characters from said series on the front page almost always). I know DBZ has had a bad history, it's done and over. Dwelling on it to the point of questioning every little thing years after the dbz megathread insanity doesn't make those that do that look reasonable. Especially when reasonable posters here have made many good faith arguments. And in Hazard's case a feat thread to showcase how powerful these guys were at baseline before the big stuff started happening. I mean for a long time people were giving them lopsided energy durability when this was never stated as a thing in series. Which is something basically unheard of in any nondbz series character not specifically stated to have it.

Asking me about Anime I know little-to-nothing of, nor read any threads of will net you no answers I'm afraid.

That's fine because I'am not looking for them, I was making the point that no other series of DBZ's popularity gets a similar treatment. I mention popularity only in that less known/debated series can get that level of scrutiny only because only 1 or 2 people on the board may have first hand knowledge and all the rest comes from people asking questions about stuff they find through casual searches. The only other popular series I can think off the top of my head that got dbz levels of infamy here was Star Wars.

I'd have to ask how many of these anime are claiming lightspeed or FTL reactions as that's usually when the major questioning begins from my personal experience.

And if this began and ended at speed I wouldn't be here complaining, speed has always been a touchy subject for every character because of how good blitzes are. Even comic characters have to earn their stripes there. But I know of no comic character off the top of my head that busted planets on panel and needed a mod ruling to convince people they were planets. That's the issue for me. DBZ having to work twice as hard in all areas for half the credit in any.

[Pendaran]

I'm going to take a "mark it on your calendars" moment to argue in favour of something from DBZ, if briefly in a "I am trying not to touch this thread" kind of way.

The particular structure or mapping of a universe being weird as hell doesn't necessarily mean anything for saying it's less big than a normal universe. For example, in the first and second editions of Exalted (no idea on the basically its own thing and break from them third edition), Creation was technically a finite space, itself within the infinite space of the Wyld, that Creation besides somehow contained within it, infinite spaces. Which is something I would note when people would note "threats to that entire reality are less potent because that reality is not that big!"

[The Dork Knight]

I'm going to take a "mark it on your calendars" moment to argue in favour of something from DBZ, if briefly in a "I am trying not to touch this thread" kind of way.

The particular structure or mapping of a universe being weird as hell doesn't necessarily mean anything for saying it's less big than a normal universe. For example, in the first and second editions of Exalted (no idea on the basically its own thing and break from them third edition), Creation was technically a finite space, itself within the infinite space of the Wyld, that Creation besides somehow contained within it, infinite spaces. Which is something I would note when people would note "threats to that entire reality are less potent because that reality is not that big!"

The analogy doesn't work for DBZS because the size is noted to be infinite only in the guidebook. For that matter, the whole " finite universe surrounded by engraved wall" thing is also only from the guidebook.

Without that you have people talking about a North Galaxy , which makes it slightly dubious about the size of the universe if there are only 4 galaxies , but apparently there's stuff in the manga and anime talking about multiple ones so that's that I guess . It defaults to a regular sized universe

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

The analogy doesn't work for DBZS because the size is noted to be infinite only in the guidebook. For that matter, the whole " finite universe surrounded by engraved wall" thing is also only from the guidebook.

Without that you have people talking about a North Galaxy , which makes it slightly dubious about the size of the universe if there are only 4 galaxies , but apparently there's stuff in the manga and anime talking about multiple ones so that's that I guess . It defaults to a regular sized universe

Yea, about one billion pages back I translated the Japanese page of Jaco or whoever saying there were "tons of galaxies", nothing specific, but it's at least better than 'four'. Other than that, I ultimately have no problem with the mod-ruled whatever, so long as he gets something to support the showing later on in the show/manga/cave drawings. Otherwise, it should be treated like any other outlier.