Goku vs. Phoenix

[Anarchist]

*sigh* Without getting into the universe buster discussion again, concerning Odin's 'speed', he has been able to hit the Silver Surfer while the latter was attacking him and didn't seem to be moving slow either

[Beadle]

No mean feat, considering he presumably has issues with depth perception...

(Although two eyes in that scan.)

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Except we don't know his limit or what he is fully capable of. Beerus showing off the ability to nulify universe destroying energies with 70% of his full power is actually a limit we can get since we know he can't destroy too much more than a single universe. It's not a casual thing he can do in other words.

So couple of things.

He ever bust a single universe ? Outside of statements and vague waves of energy being cancelled out or whatever, has he?

70% of his output ? Okay, what does that mean. Have we seen him at his max ? What feats support this ?

I mean, outside of the once off feat, what have EITHER of them done to show they're capable of what you apparently KNOW for a fact.

I don't know. I need the facts. Not statements. Or roundabout logic.

[Cody]

He ever bust a single universe ? Outside of statements and vague waves of energy being cancelled out or whatever, has he?

Considering that DBS is going on? No. But when the effects of the clash was effecting the entire universe, being seen even outside of said universe and into the Kaioshin realm, and with the narration, Kai's, Whis, and Beerus all say that the universe was just about to blow up had Beerus not nullify that attack, and considering the fact that he has zero contradicting feats as this is basically the first feat of him actually using most of his power for something? The feat isn't "off".

The guy's first appearance involved him shattering half a planet just by casually tapping his finger nail on the desk. When he was just starting to get serious with Goku, his and Goku's fists collided and effected the entire universe and the Kaioshin realm outside of it.

Then he finally used at least most of his power in order to prevent the universe being blown up.

The show did almost everything but have the universe actually blow up because otherwise; there would be no show.

70% of his output ? Okay, what does that mean. Have we seen him at his max ? What feats support this ?

We have not seen his max yet. And the fact that he wasn't really harmed by Goku at all nor was he all that tired. He was obviously holding back.

what have EITHER of them done to show they're capable of what you apparently KNOW for a fact.

That's their only feat of them using most of their energy on an attack. There is nothing to contradict it. Goku got a huge power boost, and this is the first time we see Beerus actually fight.

[The Dork Knight]

Odin isn't exactly the average Skyfather in terms of shown feats. But I thought Odin was only a galaxy buster at best? When did Odin take multi-galaxy busting attacks?

And Beerus is a Universe buster, as evident by his nullifying the universe destroying energies with just 70% of his full power.

When did Goku bust multiple galaxies for that to be a thing ?

Also Odin. Dormannu . Cyttorak . People like that are more or less equal in power . Zeus is supposed to be up there too , though he doesn't really have the feats

[The Dork Knight]

Also the DBZ/DBS universe . From the one map we have seen....that's not exactly a regular size universe

[Cody]

When did Goku bust multiple galaxies for that to be a thing ?

He contributed to half the power in the beam clash that was about to bust the universe. Otherwise he would have been overtaken by Beerus' attack. If the blast could destroy the universe, as well as the realm beyond it, and if Goku was responsible for half of it's power, then that would mean he could take out at least half the universe.

Also the DBZ/DBS universe . From the one map we have seen....that's not exactly a regular size universe

It's still a universe. The Daizenshuu stated this in the Daizenshuu books: "The endless, expansive space wrapped around every celestial body that exists in the Living World. Along with the "Demon Realm," it is a single, large world in the Living World. In the world of Dragon Ball, the universe is located beneath the World Beyond, and it is hermetically sealed by a barrier that is engraved with a strange design. Within the universe, there are "nebulae" composed of innumerable stars, and there are "galaxies" composed of innumerable nebulae. There is a ruling Kami for each galaxy. Earth resides in the Solar System, a galactic nebula on the outskirts of the North Galaxy.
[Par.] A "Cosmic Police Organization" exists in the universe. However, they lack the fighting ability to oppose Freeza and the Saiyans. (Daizenshuu 4, Page 72)"(http://magikarp46.com/dragonball/gui...-worldview.php)

So a "nebulae" composes of numerous solar systems in it(like an actual galaxy does), one being the one DB earth is in. And there are countless "nebulae" in a part of the universe called "galaxy".

So...stupidly huge galaxies in other words with actual galaxies inside them called "Nebulae".

Though the manga never actually mentioned the term "galaxy". A point I've read a while ago touched up on that:

"The first time galaxies are ever mentioned in the series is when North Kaio talks to the Great Elder during Super Saiyan Goku and Freeza’s battle. Previously, Kaio had always simply been called “Kaio”, and the guide oni who took Goku to the Serpent Road explained that Kaio “stood above all the gods in the universe”. However, Kaio introduces himself to the Great Elder as “the Kaio of the North Galaxy” (北銀河の界王/kita-ginga no kaiou; in Viz he says “god” instead of “Kaio”). There’s no real plural in Japanese, so “North Galaxy” could also possibly be “North Galaxies”.

It’s not until the Boo arc that Kaio’s line is expanded on. While Goku trains in the afterlife for the 25th Tenkaichi Budoukai, the South Kaio appears to observe his training. Rather than “galaxies”, the South Kaio talks about “Areas” (エリア/eria). Goku is said to be the first or second strongest warrior from the North Area, and South Kaio mentions his own South Area (in Viz, “Area” isn’t used, and they simply say “the North” and “the South”). It’s not clear how Areas relate to galaxies. Earth is also said to be in the North Area, so Areas aren’t just some division for the afterlife.

Shortly after South Kaio appeared in the manga (chapter 428, July 12th, 1993), all 4 Kaios appeared in the Afterlife Tournament filler arc, which premiered July 18th, 1993. In this arc, it’s explained that there are four Kaios, who rule the North, South, East, and West Galaxies, respectively (but the lack of a plural in Japanese kicks in again here: West Kaio, for instance, could be in charge of either the West Galaxy or West Galaxies). Above them is the Dai-Kaio, their ruler. It seems that Toriyama was fairly involved in this filler arc, since he drew a map of the DB cosmos for the first time so that it could be used for this storyline, and personally did the Dai-Kaio’s character design. In fact, the Dai-Kaio is mentioned in the anime about three months before he is in the manga: it’s not until Shin’s true identity is revealed that Piccolo explains that the Dai-Kaio is the one who stands above the 4 Kaios (chapter 440, October 11th, 1993). So Toriyama was almost certainly involved in coming up with the back-story for the Kaios for those filler episodes."

Either way though. They are big.

[StupidMoniker]

That sure all sounds like a lot of reference materials that are not the manga (and not DBS).

[Cody]

That sure all sounds like a lot of reference materials that are not the manga (and not DBS).

They don't just make that information up. All the drawings themselves are from Akira as well, so they obviously looked to him for information on the Dragonball universe. Why get him to draw that otherwise?

[The Dork Knight]

1. The link doesn't work

2. Universes that are endless yet hermetically sealed ? My, my

3. Hermetically sealed things could shake with well less than universe busting force . If it's a thing with a barrier that considerably lessens the implication of the feat

For example a hollow ball can be shaken with far less than the force required to bust it , and the effect felt outside the ball too

4. Definitions for nebulae that are nothing like real life nebulae do not for a convincing " real life like universe" argument make

5. So basically 4 galaxies in the end , Eh? Not what I'd call a proper sized universe

[Cody]

1. The link doesn't work

Fixed. http://magikarp46.com/dragonball/gui...-worldview.php

2. Universes that are endless yet hermetically sealed ? My, my

3. Hermetically sealed things could shake with well less than universe busting force . If it's a thing with a barrier that considerably lessens the implication of the feat

For example a hollow ball can be shaken with far less than the force required to bust it , and the effect felt outside the ball too

That's a hollow ball. This isn't hollow, and it was their fists connecting that shook the galaxy, not the universe. The shockwave was felt throughout the universe and beyond however.

The universe did shake in the manga though.

4. Definitions for nebulae that are nothing like real life nebulae do not for a convincing " real life like universe" argument make

That was in reference to it's size.

5. So basically 4 galaxies in the end , Eh? Not what I'd call a proper sized universe

Their basically quadrants. As my last paragraph explained; the actual English translation could be either "galaxy" or "galaxies". As explained in my previous post.

[StupidMoniker]

They don't just make that information up. All the drawings themselves are from Akira as well, so they obviously looked to him for information on the Dragonball universe. Why get him to draw that otherwise?

Why do they get people at Marvel to work on Marvel.com or the various Marvel handbooks? Who cares. Feats from the primary source material are what count, not outside sourcebooks, no matter who worked on them. That is why we don't say that Iron Man is as fast as Quicksilver, or that Thor is as fast as Silver Surfer, or that Danny Rand and Amadeus Cho are the same speed. We don't say that Quicksilver, Deadpool, Dr. Doom, Luke Cage, and Spider-man are all the same strength. Even though Marvel.wikia.com says they are. Deadpool is Luke Cage strong, more durable than Spider-man, and has the fighting skills of Iron Fist, according to the guide.

[The Dork Knight]

Fixed. http://magikarp46.com/dragonball/gui...-worldview.php

Whoo...that looks like a really long wiki entry . How much of it was written by Toriyama exactly ?

Last I checked , wikis don't fly on Rumbles

That's a hollow ball.

For all intents and purposes it is. Any universe , even the DBZ verse is largely empty space

Surround empty space by a barrier and what do you get ?

That's right , a hollow ball

This isn't hollow, and it was their fists connecting that shook the galaxy, not the universe. The shockwave was felt throughout the universe and beyond however.

If a thing has tangible physical barriers , shaking it becomes considerably less impressive

Think of sound waves in auditoriums or indeed opera halls .

The universe did shake in the manga though.

Again, if a thing has actual physical barriers for shockwaves to bounce back off , the whole thing is not all that impressive

That was in reference to it's size.

My point was in reference to its definition, which is kinda the opposite of a real life nebula .

Their basically quadrants. As my last paragraph explained; the actual English translation could be either "galaxy" or "galaxies". As explained in my previous post.

Your last paragraph is something that painfully strives and ultimately fails to establish why the translation of Galaxy should be taken in the plural , outside of speculation

They call it a Galaxy .north Galaxy even . Which shows there can be a maximum of what ...8 galaxies ? Even counting things like North west and whatnot ?

The things within them called nebulae that are not actual nebulae contain multiple star systems ? So ? A single Galaxy , or heck indeed a single ( real life ) nebula is large enough to contain hundreds of star systems and not be a Galaxy . There are STARS half the size of our solar system . There are black holes that dwarf our solar system

And yet they are less than nothing compared to the actual size of a single Galaxy .


So ultimately despite the impressive wiki , if it's a universe with a physical boundary and 4 galaxies , that feat ain't all that

[Cody]

Whoo...that looks like a really long wiki entry . How much of it was written by Toriyama exactly ?

Last I checked , wikis don't fly on Rumbles

It's from the Daizenshuu, not Wiki. They get the drawings, and info from Akira.

That explains their universe like you wanted. You saying it looks like a wiki entry won't change that fact.

For all intents and purposes it is. Any universe , even the DBZ verse is largely empty space

It's a barrier, not a snow globe.

Surround empty space by a barrier and what do you get ?

That's right , a hollow ball

More like a poor attempt by you to low balling a feat. It's a barrier surrounding an ever expanding universe(meaning the barrier would increase in size as well). It's not a physical glass barrier.

If a thing has tangible physical barriers , shaking it becomes considerably less impressive


Think of sound waves in auditoriums or indeed opera halls.

They shook their galaxy, as has been explained, and destroyed several planets all from the first impact of their firsts connecting. Then a shockwave came after, completely covered the universe and outside of it while destroying planets. Then the energy clash covered the universe and was about to blow it up.

How many times does this have to be explained? It's right from the clip yet you're trying to make it sound like it's some sort of hollow ball and that the barriers are physical in nature, holding everything within tightly and that they almost destroyed the universe just by shaking it, which is somehow easy because they have a barrier around them?

Again, if a thing has actual physical barriers for shockwaves to bounce back off , the whole thing is not all that impressive

Now you're purposefully misinterpreting information and feats. It wasn't the shockwave that almost destroyed the universe, it was the energy itself. The shockwave was disintegrating planets and warping space.

Have you ever even seen the scenes that are being refereed to here?

Your last paragraph is something that painfully strives and ultimately fails to establish why the translation of Galaxy should be taken in the plural , outside of speculation

They call it a Galaxy .north Galaxy even

So you're just going to ignore most of what i said and pick out bits and pieces, while ignoring the point on Japanese translations. The point was that it was never clear, and that it went my several different names in the past.

But you are trying to say it is one thing based on...nothing at all except for a single translation that could be taken in 2 different ways due to it being Japanese and despite it being refereed to a singular plural would contradict what was said in canon.

Which shows there can be a maximum of what ...8 galaxies ? Even counting things like North west and whatnot ?

It means that there is 4 parts of the universe, not 4 galaxies.

The things within them called nebulae that are not actual nebulae contain multiple star systems ?

That's generally what a galaxy is yes. A thing that has a bunch of solar systems in it.

[quote]So ? A single Galaxy , or heck indeed a single ( real life ) nebula is large enough to contain hundreds of star systems and not be a Galaxy . There are STARS half the size of our solar system . There are black holes that dwarf our solar system

And yet they are less than nothing compared to the actual size of a single Galaxy.[quote]

Except the Earth's Solar System is described as being located in one of these "innumerable nebulae". So it's part of something in a galaxy, and there are a bunch of galaxies that King Kai looks over. That was the point.

So ultimately despite the impressive wiki

It's not a "wiki", it's a translation of the official guidebooks that explains the DB universe. Doesn't matter if you want to look down on it in a condescending matter just because you don't like the information it presents.

if it's a universe with a physical boundary and 4 galaxies , that feat ain't all that

Except it's nothing like that at all, as was already described. Think; if it has a physical boundry then Champa and Vados would not have been able to get into the universe. While Beerus and Whis would never have been able to leave and go into the kaioshin realm and go back in. The parts of the universe that the kais have been looking after have never been refereed to as single galaxies in the manga, which is why the Daizenshuu may very well mean "galaxies", and not galaxy, due to the kai's referring them as area's and never as a single galaxy.

Why do they get people at Marvel to work on Marvel.com or the various Marvel handbooks? Who cares. Feats from the primary source material are what count, not outside sourcebooks, no matter who worked on them. That is why we don't say that Iron Man is as fast as Quicksilver, or that Thor is as fast as Silver Surfer, or that Danny Rand and Amadeus Cho are the same speed. We don't say that Quicksilver, Deadpool, Dr. Doom, Luke Cage, and Spider-man are all the same strength. Even though Marvel.wikia.com says they are. Deadpool is Luke Cage strong, more durable than Spider-man, and has the fighting skills of Iron Fist, according to the guide.

This logic is poor. The drawings are by Akira, why would they have him make drawings and not get the info?

And there is no feat to be explained. This is the size of the DB universe being explained, not a characters feat. Actually read the posts you are trying to reply too.

[The Dork Knight]

To begin with, this is the mod ruling on DB Canon

MODERATOR

Having looked over the thread, my view on Canon is that it goes the DB Manga, the new Movies (BoG and upcoming Frieza Movie) and DBO.
I don't see DBZ Kai as being canon at all. It's a shortened version of the anime, but that's really all it is.

Let's let that stand as our ruling on DBZ Canon.

Since there's no mention of the Daizenshuu anywhere there , that's you , ignoring a mod ruling . To begin with .