Goku vs. Phoenix

[Pendaran]

*walks into thread, turns around, walks right back out*

Goodnight Everybody!

[Len Ikari145]

*walks into thread, turns around, walks right back out*

Goodnight Everybody!

(watches as Penderan disappears over the horizon, a trail of dust following him) There goes the wisest man who's ever lived. (lies back on his recliner and continues to watch the carnage while stuffing his face with popcorn)

[The Dork Knight]

It's from the Daizenshuu, not Wiki. They get the drawings, and info from Akira.

Marvel has an open forum set up for one of their head honchos ( Brevroot ) answering fans' questions . That's without going to individual writers for individual stories going to Twitter and whatnot to give clear cut answers to what they think , the characters and stories they wrote mean. We just had a thread recently where the guy spent a lot of time posting links to statements by Jurgens and Ross , that are as clear cut as you can get , from a guidebook even , on marvel and dc characters

Please do tell me how much of these writers' and editors' input we should consider ?

Or does DBZ receive a special exemption from this Rumbles rule ? Do wikis ( edited by writers who actually wrote the stories , to use another example , Ross' JLA wiki ) now count for other characters as well?

That explains their universe like you wanted. You saying it looks like a wiki entry won't change that fact.

Fan fiction based on Akira's drawings certainly qualifies as wiki entry
Moreover , as noted , there's a mod ruling on DB canon which doesn't include this .

It's a barrier, not a snow globe.

The one map that Akira has drawn certainly makes it look like a snow globe

More like a poor attempt by you to low balling a feat. It's a barrier surrounding an ever expanding universe(meaning the barrier would increase in size as well).

citation?

It's not a physical glass barrier.

Even if it's an expanding universe , it makes no difference . Barriers a barrier . Stuff bounces off barriers .

They shook their galaxy, as has been explained, and destroyed several planets all from the first impact of their firsts connecting.

So?

Then a shockwave came after, completely covered the universe and outside of it while destroying planets. Then the energy clash covered the universe and was about to blow it up.

Question : where did the shockwave come from ? Unless it's the initial shockwave bouncing back from the barrier ?

How many times does this have to be explained? It's right from the clip yet you're trying to make it sound like it's some sort of hollow ball and that the barriers are physical in nature, holding everything within tightly and that they almost destroyed the universe just by shaking it, which is somehow easy because they have a barrier around them?

This ultimately arises from your citation from a non canon ( for Rumbles purposes at least) , source that the universe is surrounded by a strange barrier that and I quote

is hermetically sealed by a barrier that is engraved with a strange design.

you are now trying to claim that something that is "engraved with a design" is not physical in nature . At least stay consistent to your non canon sources/speculation

Now you're purposefully misinterpreting information and feats. It wasn't the shockwave that almost destroyed the universe, it was the energy itself. The shockwave was disintegrating planets and warping space.

That's a lot of trouble to say "shockwave !" " energy!" Whatever without any actual universe busting happening in the universe with physical barriers that allows shockwaves to bounce off them ( basic physics )

Have you ever even seen the scenes that are being refereed to here?

Yes

So you're just going to ignore most of what i said and pick out bits and pieces,

Most of what you quoted was dire speculation that ended with the wiki guy admitting " yes at no point did the dude actually say galaxies , plural .

while ignoring the point on Japanese translations.

If it was never clear then stop using it . Dozens of feats are thrown out on Rumbles for not being " clear ". We don't need unclear translated fan fiction to add to that list

The point was that it was never clear, and that it went my several different names in the past.

But never " galaxies" . Shame .

But you are trying to say it is one thing based on...nothing at all except for a single translation that could be taken in 2 different ways due to it being Japanese and despite it being refereed to a singular plural would contradict what was said in canon.

So you are guessing then? Guesses are not valid on Rumbles

So for the last time , did the dude at any point say " galaxies", plural ? If not , then that's that

It means that there is 4 parts of the universe, not 4 galaxies.

Despite said parts being explicitly referred to as North Galaxy etc?

That's generally what a galaxy is yes. A thing that has a bunch of solar systems in it.

A Galaxy does not contain nebulae that have their own solar systems in real life . That's one of the essential differences between the two . A nebula does not have solar systems within itself . A Galaxy has solar systems , nebulae ( but not with solar systems within them ) , black holes everything

Thus , we have established that on this front at least , DB universe is nothing like our universe .

So yes or no, DB universe is a universe with physical barriers and nebulae that contain star systems within them, and hence radically different from our of indeed most other fictional universes like marvel and dc , yes or no ?

Except the Earth's Solar System is described as being located in one of these "innumerable nebulae".

This is a physical impossibility in our universe , yes or no?

So it's part of something in a galaxy,

Uh huh

and there are a bunch of galaxies that King Kai looks over. That was the point.

Citation for this outside of desperate speculation about translations ?

Surely you have ONE citation at least that is better than " areas " and " I really want it to be a plural"?

It's not a "wiki", it's a translation of the official guidebooks that explains the DB universe.

" Guidebooks totally don't count for marvel/ DC . Guidebooks totally count for this one fandom I reaaaaly like "

Doesn't matter if you want to look down on it in a condescending matter just because you don't like the information it presents.

Hey man don't blame me . Blame the mod ruling . I'm just following rules . And basic Rumbles rules that state " ...and guidebooks are meaningless"

Except it's nothing like that at all, as was already described. Think; if it has a physical boundry then Champa and Vados would not have been able to get into the universe.

So the barrier does not exist then ? Or wait those "engravings" are floating on thin air ? I'm confused ....

While Beerus and Whis would never have been able to leave and go into the kaioshin realm and go back in.

This despite teleportation being an actual thing in said universe

The parts of the universe that the kais have been looking after have never been refereed to as single galaxies in the manga, which

...?

North Galaxy ?

is why the Daizenshuu may very well mean "galaxies", and not galaxy, due to the kai's referring them as area's and never as a single galaxy.

How you try . How you guess

You've been here long enough to know guessing isn't going to cut it when we have at least one reference to North Galaxy , singular in your own post

This logic is poor. The drawings are by Akira, why would they have him make drawings and not get the info?

Why would they get Alex Ross to draw something and not give his info ?
Actually wait ,dude pretty clearly gave his info with his name on the title of said guidebook

You , on the other hand are guessing again . It's hilarious because even the guidebook you are using does not have the name of the author in the front cover as opposed to most marvel / DC guidebooks

And there is no feat to be explained. This is the size of the DB universe being explained, not a characters feat. Actually read the posts you are trying to reply too.

I'm reading them and finding a strange lack of objectivity in your posts

[Nik Hasta]

Not that I want to get into it all that much because, as I will reiterate at every given opportunity, the whole "reverse entropy waves from punches," that Bills and Goku did was completely and utterly stupid and doesn't make any sense because it's impossible to quantify.

But, a few points;

2. Universes that are endless yet hermetically sealed ? My, my

Technically, one could argue that our universe in the real world is of a similar construction. The universe has finite dimensions (maybe) so it has an edge (maybe) yet it is nigh-on infinite in size and expanding over time into ... well, not into anything. There's physics concepts here that are a bit mental but, suffice to say, I see nothing wrong with the notion that a fictional universe could have "finite dimensions within a barrier," but also be "functionally endless,"

3. Hermetically sealed things could shake with well less than universe busting force . If it's a thing with a barrier that considerably lessens the implication of the feat

For example a hollow ball can be shaken with far less than the force required to bust it , and the effect felt outside the ball too

Again, as I pointed out in the thread where it first came up around here, it doesn't really matter how large the universe was because the waves made by Bills and Goku /gained energy over time/ instead of doing the thing every single shockwave in the real world and in DBZ prior to this point did, that is dissipate into nothingness eventually. These waves were specifically noted as doing the opposite.

So, technically, Goku and Bills could have high fived at normal baseline human strength and, assuming even the tiniest magical reverse-entropy wave was created, that wave would eventually destroy a universe of any size because it would never stop growing in power until everything was destroyed.

Reverse entropy is stupid. Like, really stupid. I'm genuinely angry at DBS for having this bollocks in there because it makes Goku and Bills' strength impossible to quantify.

But yeah, if anything, the feat in question shows that the barrier was permeable by the wave because it reached the world of the Kais which is outside the confines of the normal DBS universe. Had the waves been unable to escape the normal universe, Goku and Bills would have, eventually, caused the death of everything in their universe as their perpetually growing wavefront bounced around the universe until everything was destroyed.

Like, I said, reverse entropy is stupid. Just utterly stupid.

4. Definitions for nebulae that are nothing like real life nebulae do not for a convincing " real life like universe" argument make

This is nitpicking semantics. Yes, that is not how nebulae work but when the franchise specifies what it means when it says "nebulae," it feel disingenuous to ignore that designation because it's re-appropriating real world terms.

In short, DBS is stupid. Bills and Goku can break entropy by hitting each other.

...

And then magically not break entropy by doing the exact same thing but "matching the force, speed and the angle," perfectly - which shouldn't have done anything based on basic elementary physics.

God, I straight up rage quit DBS when that happened because it's just... it's too far.

This series makes me want to angrily chain smoke. >

[master of read]

Not that I want to get into it all that much because, as I will reiterate at every given opportunity, the whole "reverse entropy waves from punches," that Bills and Goku did was completely and utterly stupid and doesn't make any sense because it's impossible to quantify.

But, a few points;



Technically, one could argue that our universe in the real world is of a similar construction. The universe has finite dimensions (maybe) so it has an edge (maybe) yet it is nigh-on infinite in size and expanding over time into ... well, not into anything. There's physics concepts here that are a bit mental but, suffice to say, I see nothing wrong with the notion that a fictional universe could have "finite dimensions within a barrier," but also be "functionally endless,"



Again, as I pointed out in the thread where it first came up around here, it doesn't really matter how large the universe was because the waves made by Bills and Goku /gained energy over time/ instead of doing the thing every single shockwave in the real world and in DBZ prior to this point did, that is dissipate into nothingness eventually. These waves were specifically noted as doing the opposite.

So, technically, Goku and Bills could have high fived at normal baseline human strength and, assuming even the tiniest magical reverse-entropy wave was created, that wave would eventually destroy a universe of any size because it would never stop growing in power until everything was destroyed.

Reverse entropy is stupid. Like, really stupid. I'm genuinely angry at DBS for having this bollocks in there because it makes Goku and Bills' strength impossible to quantify.

But yeah, if anything, the feat in question shows that the barrier was permeable by the wave because it reached the world of the Kais which is outside the confines of the normal DBS universe. Had the waves been unable to escape the normal universe, Goku and Bills would have, eventually, caused the death of everything in their universe as their perpetually growing wavefront bounced around the universe until everything was destroyed.

Like, I said, reverse entropy is stupid. Just utterly stupid.



This is nitpicking semantics. Yes, that is not how nebulae work but when the franchise specifies what it means when it says "nebulae," it feel disingenuous to ignore that designation because it's re-appropriating real world terms.

In short, DBS is stupid. Bills and Goku can break entropy by hitting each other.

...

And then magically not break entropy by doing the exact same thing but "matching the force, speed and the angle," perfectly - which shouldn't have done anything based on basic elementary physics.

God, I straight up rage quit DBS when that happened because it's just... it's too far.

This series makes me want to angrily chain smoke. >

i stopped after that "fight" between goku and bills the first time. the animation was so terrible, i quit the series.

[The Drunkard Kid]

Regarding the one image we have of the universe, I'm pretty sure that one was a metaphor rather than a literal depiction of the universe since it has stuff like Kaiou-sama's building-planet and Enma-daiou's building-sized building being visible against the million kilometer long Snake Way, which in turn is a substantial fraction of the length of the universe that we know contains multiple star systems many lightyear apart at the minimum.

Also, I'm wondering whether using ki against the living embodiment of Life Energy would really be a viable way of harming it rather than feeding it.

[The Dork Knight]

Not that I want to get into it all that much because, as I will reiterate at every given opportunity, the whole "reverse entropy waves from punches," that Bills and Goku did was completely and utterly stupid and doesn't make any sense because it's impossible to quantify.

But, a few points;



Technically, one could argue that our universe in the real world is of a similar construction. The universe has finite dimensions (maybe) so it has an edge (maybe) yet it is nigh-on infinite in size and expanding over time into ... well, not into anything. There's physics concepts here that are a bit mental but, suffice to say, I see nothing wrong with the notion that a fictional universe could have "finite dimensions within a barrier," but also be "functionally endless,"

The problem with that Is how the kaioshin realm is depicted in the map . If it's an expanding universe like ours( the one thing we DO know about our universe ) then what does it mean for the kaoishin realm ?

Does it get absorbed into the ever expanding universe ? Does it stay a fixed distance away ? What holds it in place ? Gravity ? How does that even work for an ever expanding universe ? Does it expand too?

And finally a universe with an expanding physical barrier , ie, ever increasing mass too? How does that work? How many laws of physics does that break?

Again, as I pointed out in the thread where it first came up around here, it doesn't really matter how large the universe was because the waves made by Bills and Goku /gained energy over time/ instead of doing the thing every single shockwave in the real world and in DBZ prior to this point did, that is dissipate into nothingness eventually. These waves were specifically noted as doing the opposite.

So, technically, Goku and Bills could have high fived at normal baseline human strength and, assuming even the tiniest magical reverse-entropy wave was created, that wave would eventually destroy a universe of any size because it would never stop growing in power until everything was destroyed.

Reverse entropy is stupid. Like, really stupid. I'm genuinely angry at DBS for having this bollocks in there because it makes Goku and Bills' strength impossible to quantify.

But yeah, if anything, the feat in question shows that the barrier was permeable by the wave because it reached the world of the Kais which is outside the confines of the normal DBS universe.

Well that could just be the waves seeping through . Like again in something like an auditorium . Sound is meant to be concentrated inside but some of it seeps through anyway

Had the waves been unable to escape the normal universe, Goku and Bills would have, eventually, caused the death of everything in their universe as their perpetually growing wavefront bounced around the universe until everything was destroyed.

Like, I said, reverse entropy is stupid. Just utterly stupid.

But they (Goku and Beerus) stopped . As for the growing wave front thing from what I understand they were cancelling out the overall power of the thing . Which should still have meant largest at the epicentre and less as you go away from it ....but considering the whole thing as an eye of the storm kinda deal , it did have a fixed amount of energy ,greater than what was needed to bust that particular universe , so the shockwaves just ran out of juice after getting seemingly stronger and bouncing back and forth

Welp that wasn't expressed very well. I'll try another shot at it later .

This is nitpicking semantics. Yes, that is not how nebulae work but when the franchise specifies what it means when it says "nebulae," it feel disingenuous to ignore that designation because it's re-appropriating real world terms.

In short, DBS is stupid. Bills and Goku can break entropy by hitting each other.

...

And then magically not break entropy by doing the exact same thing but "matching the force, speed and the angle," perfectly - which shouldn't have done anything based on basic elementary physics.

God, I straight up rage quit DBS when that happened because it's just... it's too far.

By that definition of nit picking , we would end up with every comic book black hole feat counting within the definition of said comic :/

This series makes me want to angrily chain smoke. >

[Len Ikari145]

i stopped after that "fight" between goku and bills the first time. the animation was so terrible, i quit the series.

It got better after that, thank god.

[Nik Hasta]

The problem with that Is how the kaioshin realm is depicted in the map . If it's an expanding universe like ours( the one thing we DO know about our universe ) then what does it mean for the kaoishin realm ?

Does it get absorbed into the ever expanding universe ? Does it stay a fixed distance away ? What holds it in place ? Gravity ? How does that even work for an ever expanding universe ? Does it expand too?

Eh, that's not really a problem in terms of our discussion.

If it is expanding or whatever, I have no problem with the Realm of the Kais just constantly being outside of the universe irrespective of it's size.

Like, I said, I'm not pretending that the cosmology of DBZ really makes any sense, I was more pointing out that it was perfectly possible for the DBZ universe to be nigh-on infinite in dimensions and still be contained with the barrier.

Well that could just be the waves seeping through . Like again in something like an auditorium . Sound is meant to be concentrated inside but some of it seeps through anyway

That... that doesn't help with the stupidness of it.

The fact of the matter is Bills and Goku can make reverse entropy shockwaves that can transcend the confines of the universe.

But they (Goku and Beerus) stopped . As for the growing wave front thing from what I understand they were cancelling out the overall power of the thing . Which should still have meant largest at the epicentre and less as you go away from it ....but considering the whole thing as an eye of the storm kinda deal , it did have a fixed amount of energy ,greater than what was needed to bust that particular universe , so the shockwaves just ran out of juice after getting seemingly stronger and bouncing back and forth

Welp that wasn't expressed very well. I'll try another shot at it later .

They specifically said that the waves would just grow stronger. I mean, I'm fully on board with the notion that Toriyama just didn't think about what that concept meant and threw it in for fun but, technically speaking, if there were no way for waves to escape the universe - which we see with the effects reaching the land of the kais - then the first punch would have, eventually, destroyed everything in the DBZ universe.

Just because if something continues to gather energy and grow stronger, it can never stop or slow down or dissipate because it's constantly becoming more powerful.

By that definition of nit picking , we would end up with every comic book black hole feat counting within the definition of said comic :/

Not really.

Most comics and stuff say "black hole" and they assume the reader knows roughly what a black hole is. They don't specify that "black hole" means like... a cheese sandwich or whatever and then have someone being all like "He ate a black hole," while showing Vegeta eating a sandwich.

DBZ says "'Nebulae' are enormous collections of stars" to which we say "No they aren't," and they say "We're using the word to describe something else than what you think. Use that terminology from here,"

So, yeah, it's just semantics and arguing that it somehow undermines the franchise is a bit reductive.

[Anarchist]

Gonna concur here, discussing feats is ok, but let's not descent into franchise bashing here.

[The Dork Knight]

Welp sorry if that came across as me somehow bashing the franchise . That wasn't my intention

Again, this is directed to Nik

1. It still doesn't explain where all the extra mass for the ever expanding physical barrier comes from, if indeed it is expanding


2. If they specifically said the waves would keep getting stronger and stronger without limits , that would now mean Goku and Beerus have infinite energy o_0 and Goku somehow somewhat less infinite energy than Beerus

3. That wasn't really the point I was making with regards to comic book black holes but ok let's drop that anyway . Said nebulae can still contain hundreds of stars / star systems and be nothing more than a star cluster really , which ultimately makes far more sense if they are part of a galaxy like North Galaxy

[Cody]

You , on the other hand are guessing again

The only one guessing here is you. You're basically claiming to know more about Japanese translations, than one of the guys I was quoting who actually could translate it. It was never once refereed to having only 4 galaxies in the manga. That's a fact, not an opinion. It was consistently referred to as areas, or something else. Each kai looks after a fourth of the galaxy. The translations in the guidebooks are never 100% clear on whether they mean galaxy or galaxies, but the manga refers to them as "areas".

But you like to ignore that in order to try and low ball the feat as much as you can.

It's hilarious because even the guidebook you are using does not have the name of the author in the front cover as opposed to most marvel / DC guidebooks

Akira partakes in the Daizenshuu. He is involved in interviews and he creates the drawings, such as the maps and the like. It's the Daizenshuu and Akira is always referenced in the book itself. The site I posted just has the translations of the contents.

Not that I want to get into it all that much because, as I will reiterate at every given opportunity, the whole "reverse entropy waves from punches," that Bills and Goku did was completely and utterly stupid and doesn't make any sense because it's impossible to quantify.

Why do people insinuating that we are talking about the friggin punch? We are talking about the beam clash.

Anyway, thanks for replying to the Dorkster. Pretty much said everything I was going to say so now I don't have to worry about making a long ass reply :P.

To begin with, this is the mod ruling on DB Canon

Since there's no mention of the Daizenshuu anywhere there , that's you , ignoring a mod ruling . To begin with .

Said ruling was made long before Super was a thing. That was in reference to character feats, not how their universe looks and acts. What, because you think the DB universe has 4 small galaxies, that means that any other source material should be disregarded and we should just follow what you believe? For it sure as hell was never stated in the manga that there were only 4 galaxies, so you could only possibly mean to force how you (wrongfully) believe the size of the DB universe is on on forum.

Doesn't work that way Dork.

[abmccray]

i stopped after that "fight" between goku and bills the first time. the animation was so terrible, i quit the series.

You missed Beebus and God Satan, Vegeta's further attempts to cook for Whis, and Goku and Vegeta's house cleaning sessions.

[abmccray]

The universe thing has already been handled in Super, anyway, so this whole discussion about sources is kind of off. Jaco confirmed that there are a lot of galaxies, debunking the "4" thing.

[The Drunkard Kid]

Use the Mass times Acceleration, Luke.