New Avengers #17 - Summary and Review *SPOILERS*

[People Of The Earth]

I think showing the incursion from the perspective other than the Illuminati's was such a necessary thing to do in a story like this, because it's so easy to just sympathize and root solely for the stars of the book. If the Illuminati aren't lobbed a soft ball in this one, and they're forced to kill the Great Society's world, then it'll actually mean something.

I frankly thought they over-dramatized destroying the dead world in the Latverian incursion a BIT... but this time, when they say they're different people it'll be true IF it happens. If they murder billions of people, that's putting a lot of blood on their hands that they're likely never going to be able to wash away, regardless of how many people they will save down the line.

This.
Also, I grew fond of the Great Society so quickly... and I kind of think T'challa and Namor felt the same way in-universe whilst watching them fight teeth and nails to save their world.
This fight, if it occurs, might have terrible repercussions.
There won't be a coming back from one of the world dying in the process.
Both group are composed of pragmatists, so I do believe they'll try to work things out together in the short amount of time they have BUT, not without having enacted some kind of failsafe plan beforehand.
I can see our Illuminati hiding one of the anti-matter bomb somewhere on this world before showing up in front of the Great Society for example.

Also, welcome back Xpac and vitruvian !

[SuperBeetle]

Right, and I think that's one of the things that makes this a transitory arc. We need to see how another, similar team, for whom we also root, deals with the situations. They had more experience than our team and lost. Hell, I think the Illuminati needed this arc more than we did. "We are not the only us dealing with this. Other us-es lost. We sympathize. Oops, now we need to kill them to survive." Its gonna be gut wrenching. I can't wait!

I don't think they will kill this Earth, I see Strange using his new powers to do what Norn can't do now.

[ShaokhaN]

Am I the only one who thought that showing from the Mapmakers was a bit underwhelming?

These huge menaces that the 616 universe was going to have to face were first mentioned by the Black Swan, and she made them out to be absolutely terrifying, way beyond the Builders. Then we met the Black Priests, which indeed made short work of one team of Illuminati which included Black Bolt, Magneto, Captain Mar-vell, Professor X, Iron Man, Reed, T'Challa and Shuri. Ok, impressive. After that, we met the Mapmakers, which did also make short work of another team of illuminati consisting of Magneto, Emma Frost, two Capt Britain, Iron Man, T'Challa, Reed and Doom, but not without losing one of their members to Doom, for no apparent reason except that he's Doom. We don't see him actually hurting the Mapmaker, he just stands there with the Mapmaker's arm detached - did he use brute force? We don't know, but apparently individual 616-type characters can sometimes manage to take out individual Mapmakers with no prep whatsoever. That's already way less impressive for our foes, since we now know that a Mapmaker would stand no chance against a 616 abstract.

Next, we see that a Black Swan like the one we've met is more than capable of destroying a Black Priest. Yes, that is the same Black Swan that was knocked out by a blow from T'Challa and which apparently was later re-made prisoner by the Illuminati even as she struggled. Ok, maybe she was purposely letting herself be imprisoned, but still, we now know that this character is able to beat a Black Priest one-on-one. Underwhelming again.

Now, four Mapmakers just got ridiculed by the Great Society. One couldn't "adapt" fast enough to survive a speedster taking its central A.I. Uh, how about having a more resistant protection in the first place? Would that speedster have been able to take out a full adamantium Ultron's central A.I.? Another one decides to morph to be able to fight the GS' Martian Manhunter equivalent. Uh, what? How about just obliterating him on the spot? Do you really need to actually brawl with him to take him out? Finally, three Mapmakers are apparently unable to react fast enough to Sun God going nova, as in unable to even think of using a forcefield of the type Dr. Spectrum used (if the Mapmakers are supposed to be very powerful, how can they possibly not be powerful enough to create a forcefield of similar strength?) or of teleporting away. They get obliterated by that nova burst. Apparently Sun God is supposed to be "post-universal", whatever that's supposed to mean, but we still just saw three top dogs according to the Black Swan get destroyed by a single hero from another Earth. Frankly, at this point they're looking like very powerful antagonists but still considerably below some of the other foes the Avengers have faced in the past.

Anyone else feel that way? Granted, we haven't see the Ivory Kings yet, nor the Great Destroyer, but the way the Black Swan referred to these menaces that would be major threats to the heroes lead me to believe something bigger was coming. Sure, they're strong enough to take/destroy the Earth under the right circumstances, but they would get crushed by the 616 abstracts.

[Vic Vega]

@ShaokhaN: Maybe we are supposed to assume that the Great Society are at the insane power levels of the classic Justice League.

In that case, small number of Mapmakers would have no chance against them.

I was gonna say that while the Illuminati are tough, they aren't THAT tough, but then I remembered that the Hulk is now a member.

And Doc. Strange got a power up.

You know, they have probably got enough power now on both teams to wipe the Mapmakers out completely.

[Justice]

The Hulk is now part of the Illuminati. Which I guess means that Hulk's Joe Fixit/Green Scar/Worldbreaker persona has been lost as I don't see that guy ever working with the Illuminati.

The Green Scar/World Breaker persona is the result of Hulk and Banner being 100% on the same page, both completely enraged beyond comprehension. This grants the maximum limits of the Hulk's strength and Banner's intellect.

In Avengers #28, Banner was essentially at the point and continually taking dosages of sedative to last long enough in order to hear Tony out. Afterwards, he understood and was totally on board. Don't forget, he only allowed himself to be stopped in World War Hulk when he realized he'd break the planet so not even Hulk wants this to happen either.

[DT Winslow]

forgot about Strange. Thanks for the reminder.

I had also forgotten how much I dislike these new FF uniforms.

So I guess adding a Hulk and the Docs power-up makes up for a weakened Black Bolt.

Plus with Schiti on art, it'll be gorgeous.

[classicgmer]

I really liked Black Panther and Namor's chat, it seems those 2 are close to mending their problems with each other.

Yeah but we know thanks to Original Sin pretty much any reconciliation between the two will most likely be shattered when BP finds out Namor directed Proxima & the rest of Thanos's forces to Wakanda. I also suspect Namor saying he regrets many things is probably as close to any type of apology as we're going to get for his transgressions against Wakanda because he's just not hardwired to come right out & say " I screwed up I'm sorry."

[ShaokhaN]

By the way, I have a feeling the Great Society & the Illuminati will end up working together to "move a world" with Strange's new powers, especially given that the Norn is exhausted.

[Alvarez]

Great issue. Makes me want a Black Panther/Namor mini where the bro it up and do kingly things.
Loving Hickman's JLA/Squadron Supreme team.

[dupersuper]

Did I really need to read Avengers first just because Hulk shows up in 1 panel set in the future?

[Alvarez]

Did I really need to read Avengers first just because Hulk shows up in 1 panel set in the future?

I was thinking the same thing. heh.

[XPac]

Am I the only one who thought that showing from the Mapmakers was a bit underwhelming?

These huge menaces that the 616 universe was going to have to face were first mentioned by the Black Swan, and she made them out to be absolutely terrifying, way beyond the Builders. Then we met the Black Priests, which indeed made short work of one team of Illuminati which included Black Bolt, Magneto, Captain Mar-vell, Professor X, Iron Man, Reed, T'Challa and Shuri. Ok, impressive. After that, we met the Mapmakers, which did also make short work of another team of illuminati consisting of Magneto, Emma Frost, two Capt Britain, Iron Man, T'Challa, Reed and Doom, but not without losing one of their members to Doom, for no apparent reason except that he's Doom. We don't see him actually hurting the Mapmaker, he just stands there with the Mapmaker's arm detached - did he use brute force? We don't know, but apparently individual 616-type characters can sometimes manage to take out individual Mapmakers with no prep whatsoever. That's already way less impressive for our foes, since we now know that a Mapmaker would stand no chance against a 616 abstract.

Next, we see that a Black Swan like the one we've met is more than capable of destroying a Black Priest. Yes, that is the same Black Swan that was knocked out by a blow from T'Challa and which apparently was later re-made prisoner by the Illuminati even as she struggled. Ok, maybe she was purposely letting herself be imprisoned, but still, we now know that this character is able to beat a Black Priest one-on-one. Underwhelming again.

Now, four Mapmakers just got ridiculed by the Great Society. One couldn't "adapt" fast enough to survive a speedster taking its central A.I. Uh, how about having a more resistant protection in the first place? Would that speedster have been able to take out a full adamantium Ultron's central A.I.? Another one decides to morph to be able to fight the GS' Martian Manhunter equivalent. Uh, what? How about just obliterating him on the spot? Do you really need to actually brawl with him to take him out? Finally, three Mapmakers are apparently unable to react fast enough to Sun God going nova, as in unable to even think of using a forcefield of the type Dr. Spectrum used (if the Mapmakers are supposed to be very powerful, how can they possibly not be powerful enough to create a forcefield of similar strength?) or of teleporting away. They get obliterated by that nova burst. Apparently Sun God is supposed to be "post-universal", whatever that's supposed to mean, but we still just saw three top dogs according to the Black Swan get destroyed by a single hero from another Earth. Frankly, at this point they're looking like very powerful antagonists but still considerably below some of the other foes the Avengers have faced in the past.

Anyone else feel that way? Granted, we haven't see the Ivory Kings yet, nor the Great Destroyer, but the way the Black Swan referred to these menaces that would be major threats to the heroes lead me to believe something bigger was coming. Sure, they're strong enough to take/destroy the Earth under the right circumstances, but they would get crushed by the 616 abstracts.

Yeah, as powerful as the Black Priests and Map Makers are I am starting to suspect they're not quite as uber as the Black Swan makes them out to me. The moment we saw Doom beat one straight up, they lost a bit of their mystique. Same with seeing Black Swan (who was defeated by T'Challa fairly easily) soloing a Black Priest. As much as Black Swan is trying to paint them as unbeatable boogy man, they don't seem to be anything the earth heroes can't handle. They've seen worse.

[XPac]

Did I really need to read Avengers first just because Hulk shows up in 1 panel set in the future?

Pretty much, since that reveal would have spoiled Avengers if you read it first.

[XPac]

By the way, I have a feeling the Great Society & the Illuminati will end up working together to "move a world" with Strange's new powers, especially given that the Norn is exhausted.

Yeah, I can see that. The Illuminati have been given a lot of relatively easy "outs" so far... I'm almost to the point where I'm just going to expect that to happen each time.

And really, it's possible that despite all the build up marvel simply doesn't want these heroes murdering billions of people. Regardless of how good the story is, that's something you really want to think about before you go there.

[vitruvian]

Did I really need to read Avengers first just because Hulk shows up in 1 panel set in the future?

Not if you can connect the dots by reading this first, and then either reading Avengers or seeing in the discussion here that that's where him joining happened. It was a good story, though, so no harm reading it.