What Do People Think Of JL/JLU Superman?

[Burning Eyes]

I always felt it was a poor interpretation of the big guy.
Particularly with regards to his lack of invulnerability.

[Flash Gordon]

I'd love to see SUPERMAN get his own animated series now, but as a more adult themed program.

The CW can run it in prime time, I'm sure it'd do well for itself. Just no CGI.

[Dispenser Of Truth]

STAS was perfectly fine (and had a far better voice in Tim Daily), but even then, Mark Waid mentioned in Voices From Krypton that even the people he talked with who were happy to be there were pretty open about how they wished they were working on Batman instead.

JL/JLU, despite some stand out episodes and moments--I'd argue their version of "For the Man Who Has Everything" was actually much truer to the character than the original--was generally pretty abominable there. Even the second season of JLU, one of my favorite seasons of any television show ever and a huge part of my continuing enjoyment of the characters and superhero genre, was pretty much entirely predicated on the basis that Superman was, ahem, One Bad Day away from going berserk and taking over the world, even knowing Luthor was directing his plans to achieve that and that alone. And boy oh boy, did the show go out of its way to make you believe in that possibility:

[Hilden B. Lade]

Weak.

You'd think that Superman could take more punishment, as well as have better judgment...

[Kid A]

I wouldn't go that far.

I'd say Superman getting dumped on/ ignored is much more the norm at DC since 1986. Batgod getting dumped on / shown up happens so rarely that it's actually shocking when it does happen.

Yeah, that's why I always find it funny that it's become such a widely accepted thing that Johns hates Batman. It's so rare that a Justice League writer doesn't worship Batgod, that it must be disdain. I'm no fan of Johns's JL, but it's refreshing.

[The Beast]

Pretty horrible.

I'm surprised MoS Superman gets so much flak when this dude punched Darkseid through several buildings.

And let's not forget starting a fight with Captain Marvel for no reason.

Hypocrisy sucks.


I own all of these on DvD and outside of a few episodes, I think S:TAS and his portrayal in JLU is a great example of how boring and pretentious the "boy scout" can be.

[Dispenser Of Truth]

I own all of these on DvD and outside of a few episodes, I think S:TAS and his portrayal in JLU is a great example of how boring and pretentious the "boy scout" can be.

When it's handled badly, absolutely.

[ABH]

Mixed bag, like almost all things Superman. Every once in a while, you'll get an episode like "Hereafter" that's just plain old awesome for Supes. "For the Man Who Has Everything" was fairly faithful to the Alan Moore story, and rumor has it that Alan Moore found something that he didn't hate or regret that his name was attached to it. Then you'd get unfortunate things like the Cadmus arc when Superman was pretty misguided and had a quick temper. Then you'd get stories that didn't feature Superman, such as "The Ties That Bind" or "Patriot Act" that show the characters have great respect for him and a lot of people love him. Then you'd get scenes when Superman is trashing a city in fights with Cap Marvel or Darkseid.

I think the best answer I can give is ambivalence, except when the first season is involved, in which I have nothing good to say about JL Superman.

I'm kind of surprised people disliked Newbern over Daly that much, since I thought Newbern did a good job of imitating Daly, but with slightly more energy (I mentioned in the other thread Daly felt lethargic).

JL/JLU Superman certainly had some low lows, but the highs (like those you mentioned) were far better than any high-point in S:TAS (imo).

I also preferred Newbern's Superman to Daly's.

[hellacre]

STAS was perfectly fine (and had a far better voice in Tim Daily), but even then, Mark Waid mentioned in Voices From Krypton that even the people he talked with who were happy to be there were pretty open about how they wished they were working on Batman instead.

JL/JLU, despite some stand out episodes and moments--I'd argue their version of "For the Man Who Has Everything" was actually much truer to the character than the original--was generally pretty abominable there. Even the second season of JLU, one of my favorite seasons of any television show ever and a huge part of my continuing enjoyment of the characters and superhero genre, was pretty much entirely predicated on the basis that Superman was, ahem, One Bad Day away from going berserk and taking over the world, even knowing Luthor was directing his plans to achieve that and that alone. And boy oh boy, did the show go out of its way to make you believe in that possibility:

The show always had people talking down to Superman. Batman mocked/disrespected a lot of the time. From cry me a river to I took a bullet for you etc. They claim that show was Batman/Superman friendship. To me, it was Batman being all sassy and Superman, being the stupid jock that he was, tolerating it. Heck Superman even singing how wonderful Batman was in Destroyer...that man never gives up. Everyone's job was to say how cool Batman was. Wonder Woman showed it by chasing him like a love struck teenager and never disagreeing with him or his methods. The shows did nothing really to show Superman wouldn't betray trust in the long run and would never give up on earth. It was all about how Batman great was as seen in Epilogue in JL/U. And to compound matters in Beyond what did they do with Superman? He ended up with a starfish on his face.

There were some very good episodes that were not Superman centric but this series as a whole I would not recommend it as good showing for Superman. Or if you are a Wonder Woman fan , a Martian Manhunter fan, an Aquaman fan etc.

[Robotman]

Well, Geoff Johns showed Superman up big time by making him semi KO during Trinity War and non active during Forever Evil. And now Superman is gone from the Justice League. It seems Johns is sick of Superman as well when you look at it.

Um, Johns is taking over the Superman title with Romita very soon so I'm pretty sure he isn't "sick of Superman".


As for the animated series I was/am a big fan. Wasn't as ground breaking as BTAS but still good. It was easily my favorite portrayal of Lex Luthor and it helped introduce Darkseid and the New Gods to a new generation of fans.
Supes made some pretty stupid decisions in JLU though. But the fanboy in me absolutely loved seeing him cut loose at the end of the series and knock Darkseid around.

[RobinFan4880]

Superman is not a compelling character in general because he is, in his most iconic form, an insufferable boy scout with the power of a god. He's like the worst aspects of Captain America's personality rolled in with the power set of basically every other hero ratcheted up to the highest setting. This presents a massive challenge for any writer when it comes to crafting Superman stories. Very little in the DCU is capable of standing toe-to-toe with Superman and most of those threats are better reserved for special stories (like Darkseid). Sure Superman has weaknesses but it becomes quite dull if he is always fighting villains that use magic, kryptonite or mess with him psychologically.

How do you get around these challenges as a writer? If you can, you weaken Superman's powers. Sure he is the strongest but he doesn't need to be able to lift the weight of the Earth. Sure he is fast but he does not need to be Flash fast. Sure he has powerful heat vision but it does not need to be capable of destroying a city block. On the other front, you humanize the character and make him less sure of himself. Of course he projects his iconic persona to world but deep down he should not be Batman-level of (over-)confident. The Timmverse went this route and it worked for them pretty well. Sure there were times where Superman was basically punching bag but (outside of Batman) that happened to every character every once in a while.

I know a lot of people dislike the JLU episode where Superman and Captain Marvel get in a fight but I think it was a necessary and interesting story. Captain Marvel represented the youthful, idealistic Superman - fighting for truth, justice and liberty. Superman has been a hero for many years and done some questionable to horrible things (the worst of which was being Darkseid's puppet general and the subsequent invasion of Earth). Clark had become jaded and dark. When Superman looked at Captain Marvel, all he could see was the pain and regret in his own heart over the fact that he was no longer living up to the ideal that he had originally set out to be. That is powerful stuff and really helped grow Superman as a character.

As for Wonder Woman, she has never had an iconic or default personality or perspective. Some times she is the raging warrior, other times the compassionate female voice, other times a cool and collected soldier. She is whatever the current writer says she is. That IS a crying shame but DC has has had 60+ years to nail it down and they have failed to ever really find that iconic core of the character (in the way Batman and Superman have).

Martian Manhunter was greatly under utilized. Aquaman is the King of Atlantis, so it makes sense he would only be a part-time member. Wally was done right. JL/U solidified John Stewart's character. Batman was Bat-God, for better or worse. To be honest, two of the characters I think JLU did exceptionally well were Green Arrow and Question. Both were masterfully done.

[Dispenser Of Truth]

Superman is not a compelling character in general because he is, in his most iconic form, an insufferable boy scout with the power of a god. He's like the worst aspects of Captain America's personality rolled in with the power set of basically every other hero ratcheted up to the highest setting. This presents a massive challenge for any writer when it comes to crafting Superman stories. Very little in the DCU is capable of standing toe-to-toe with Superman and most of those threats are better reserved for special stories (like Darkseid). Sure Superman has weaknesses but it becomes quite dull if he is always fighting villains that use magic, kryptonite or mess with him psychologically.

How do you get around these challenges as a writer? If you can, you weaken Superman's powers. Sure he is the strongest but he doesn't need to be able to lift the weight of the Earth. Sure he is fast but he does not need to be Flash fast. Sure he has powerful heat vision but it does not need to be capable of destroying a city block. On the other front, you humanize the character and make him less sure of himself. Of course he projects his iconic persona to world but deep down he should not be Batman-level of (over-)confident. The Timmverse went this route and it worked for them pretty well. Sure there were times where Superman was basically punching bag but (outside of Batman) that happened to every character every once in a while.

I know a lot of people dislike the JLU episode where Superman and Captain Marvel get in a fight but I think it was a necessary and interesting story. Captain Marvel represented the youthful, idealistic Superman - fighting for truth, justice and liberty. Superman has been a hero for many years and done some questionable to horrible things (the worst of which was being Darkseid's puppet general and the subsequent invasion of Earth). Clark had become jaded and dark. When Superman looked at Captain Marvel, all he could see was the pain and regret in his own heart over the fact that he was no longer living up to the ideal that he had originally set out to be. That is powerful stuff and really helped grow Superman as a character.

Don't want to be a dick about this or anything, but how many Superman stories have you read?

[RobinFan4880]

Don't want to be a dick about this or anything, but how many Superman stories have you read?

More than enough to know it takes a good writer to make the character compelling.

[Sacred Knight]

Superman, at his most popular and successful, was absolutely none of the things you suggest are necessary to make him compelling. He was super powerful, he was confident as hell, and the audiences absolutely adored him. Thus history seems to point in a completely different direction here.

[DochaDocha]

I'd hate to think it's "necessary" to write Superman as jaded...

I think his power level was fine throughout the most part, so long as you ignore all of season one. My only other issue with power levels was that they kept giving him these stupid looking space suits, presumably to help them sell more toys.