The problem of NO KILL code

[Slowpokeking]

I think the problem is not about the hero or the villain, but the government and the justice system in the comic. If it could work like in real life, the villains would be thrown into jail and it would be over. But in the comic, they just keep coming out over and over again because of their popularity, this is the REAL problem.

If the justice system is not useful, keep the NO KILL code would be dumb. Such as we don't question Zorro or Robin Hood to have such code because there was no justice in their story background.

[GlennSimpson]

Or, alternately, more resources should be put towards keeping them in prison. Like heroes could regularly patrol around the outskirts of the prison in case there is a breakout. Or work as prison guards.

[Lee]

It sounds like your problem is that popular villains return. Writing the heroes as killers won't prevent DC from wanting to bring back popular villains. You'd just end up with fewer jailbreaks and significantly more resurrections.

[Lee Stone]

Or, alternately, more resources should be put towards keeping them in prison. Like heroes could regularly patrol around the outskirts of the prison in case there is a breakout. Or work as prison guards.

Exactly.
And if we're going "full realism" for superhero fiction, which has it roots in kids playing cops-n-robbers with clear lines of black and white...
And we realize that writers are in full control of these stories...

They could easily
A. Have a super-hero team stationed at a maximum security prison.
B. Have some villains actually be rehabilitaed.
C. Have some heroes become crazed psycho villains.

It's all in the contol of writers.

[phantom1592]

It sounds like your problem is that popular villains return. Writing the heroes as killers won't prevent DC from wanting to bring back popular villains. You'd just end up with fewer jailbreaks and significantly more resurrections.

This.

All those no-name mooks and Gang members that Batman has beaten up and thrown in jail... Stay there. Joker, Dr. Doom, Lex Luthor... they've all died in comics only to show up again in a year or two. The heroes code isn't relevant to the conversation.

Alternatively, Punisher is seen as pretty boring because he has no iconic villains. CLosest you get is kingpin or Jigsaw... who are there because of the 'can't die- plot armor'.

[Ascended]

It sounds like your problem is that popular villains return. Writing the heroes as killers won't prevent DC from wanting to bring back popular villains. You'd just end up with fewer jailbreaks and significantly more resurrections.

This. Many villains are too good to get rid of and the publishers arent going to flush money down the drain. Especially for a move that is going to bring some serious heat down on them.

I do feel like the idea of a no-kill policy is a little at odds with American culture at the moment. Very few Americans have a problem with terrorists being killed in action, many support capital punishment for terrorists who are caught. All this just makes the no kill policy harder to work with and rationalize, and its an idea that has been fraught with troublesome logic from the beginning.

At the same time, its mostly just Superman and Batman (and Spider-Man at Marvel) who strictly adhere to such a policy now. Lanterns have been killing since the Sinestro Corps rose up and Flash has been willing to cross the line since Zoom tried to kill Iris way back when (even if it almost never happens he's still willing to do it under extreme circumstances). Wonder Woman and Aquaman have been willing to kill since forever. So the idea itself is really rather limited to a handful of characters, but because its Batman and Superman, it ends up reflecting the entire DCU whether its accurate or not.

I think the answer is pretty simple though. Just write the villains as being harder to kill.

Let's say that Batman decides that there are some criminals out there who are beyond redemption and will always pose a threat no matter how good the jail is. Let's say he decides that if Joker crosses a line, Batman will stiffen his upper lip and end him. So then Joker pushes him and crosses that line, and Batman tries to kill him....and fails. I think its a viable option and a fair middle ground. Joker escapes all the time anyway, so this changes very little. If Batman feels like he can capture Joker alive, he can try. If he feels that Joker has gone too far he can opt for lethal force, and Joker can still escape. Or even turn himself into the authorities to avoid Batman's vengeance. The end result is the same, even if Batman's methods shift slightly.

And with Superman, you just play up the idea that most of his villains cant die in the first place. I mean, Brainiac, Darkseid....a lot of his foes are beyond conventional limitations and killing them isnt possible. Of the foes who can be killed, like Parasite or Metallo, well, they're too low end for Clark to be pushed into a corner anyway and others like Mongul just might be too tough for Superman to kill even if he wanted to. And that leaves Lex Luthor. So why doesnt Clark kill Lex? You can go the same route as Batman and have Lex cook up exit plans and evade Superman's attempts to finish him permanently (not too far off from what happens now) or you can have Superman recognize that he's in a war with Lex for the soul of humanity's future and if he kills Lex it will prove Lex's xenophobic fears true and Superman will lose the war. Or, my personal favorite option, have Superman decide that Lex can still be redeemed and/or is too valuable to kill. Even if Lex is the worst person ever, he and/or his technology can, and has, helped save the world more than once. Killing Lex today might mean losing a war against the Crime Syndicate tomorrow.

Really, you dont have to change anything but the words "Wont kill ever" to "wont kill unless its the only option" and then make sure that there are other options, or the attempt fails. And by doing that you solve your no kill policy problems.

[Nite-Wing]

There's no logic to any hero not killing all the time
They are all vigilantes if you want to extend the enough is enough realistic narrative towards some villains then there is no longer any reason to pretend they all shouldn't just be killing every villain they come across

[phantom1592]

I do feel like the idea of a no-kill policy is a little at odds with American culture at the moment. Very few Americans have a problem with terrorists being killed in action, many support capital punishment for terrorists who are caught. All this just makes the no kill policy harder to work with and rationalize, and its an idea that has been fraught with troublesome logic from the beginning.

At the same time, its mostly just Superman and Batman (and Spider-Man at Marvel) who strictly adhere to such a policy now. Lanterns have been killing since the Sinestro Corps rose up and Flash has been willing to cross the line since Zoom tried to kill Iris way back when (even if it almost never happens he's still willing to do it under extreme circumstances). Wonder Woman and Aquaman have been willing to kill since forever. So the idea itself is really rather limited to a handful of characters, but because its Batman and Superman, it ends up reflecting the entire DCU whether its accurate or not.

Honestly, I like the no-kill policy IN SPITE of the American culture's bloodthirsty nature. I like that there are heroes that are above that kind of nonsense.... I like there being a line that separates masked people who kill people because they feel they have it coming, and masked heroes who kill people because they think that they earned it... It's a fine line to play with.


Also, as for Flash, it was a LITTLE trickier then that. Zoom DID kill Iris... Then he planned to murder Fiona, Flash's SECOND wife! After TWO wives attacked, Barry crossed a line. And went to trial... and was kicked off the Justice League he founded.

[LoneNecromancer]

Alternatively, Punisher is seen as pretty boring because he has no iconic villains. CLosest you get is kingpin or Jigsaw... who are there because of the 'can't die- plot armor'.

Since when? Sure he's not an A-list character but Frank has a pretty decent following, and I've literally never heard anyone refer to him as boring till now.

[phantom1592]

Since when? Sure he's not an A-list character but Frank has a pretty decent following, and I've literally never heard anyone refer to him as boring till now.

He's had a few popular runs... but he's also had a LOT of garbage. And very few truly 'memorable' tales. 'Find Cartel/Dealers/Mafia/Gangsters.... Get shot at, Shoot back... Walk away.' I've heard a lot of people talk about how they like the idea of him... or how they like Garth Ennis on him... but nobody ever talks about his enemies or how to make the character compelling. Because he doesn't get to hold grudges, and his enemies don't come back.

He's had 3 movies that nobody likes. He's had Angel/resurrected version that killed demons... We've had FrankenCastle... We've had Blackface Punisher... Even Super-villain shooting version.' Drastically different directions just to breathe some life into him... only to end up back at status quo.

[Old Man Ollie 1962]

This.

All those no-name mooks and Gang members that Batman has beaten up and thrown in jail... Stay there. Joker, Dr. Doom, Lex Luthor... they've all died in comics only to show up again in a year or two. The heroes code isn't relevant to the conversation.

Alternatively, Punisher is seen as pretty boring because he has no iconic villains. CLosest you get is kingpin or Jigsaw... who are there because of the 'can't die- plot armor'.

You don't know much about Frank Castle. Castle doesn't have rogues because Castle...is...not...a...super...hero. No. He despises the superhero community in many ways. The Punisher by definition is a true vigilante. The war on crime and criminals? What Castle views as the superhero community giving lip service to, he/the Punisher literally engages in. The Punisher is an urban commando, dedicated to eradicating, wise guys, costume villains, or ANYONE that preys on his city for criminal purposes. Nothing else matters to this man. He is ALL about the mission.
Castle maybe a lot of things, but BORING ain't one of them.

[Nite-Wing]

Well the Punisher is a great character some of the characters that fans claim need to be given another shot don't even come close to having the good stories attached to their characters like Frank
DC doesn't have that many anti heroes that aren't bogged down by the shared superhero universe

[Old Man Ollie 1962]

He's had a few popular runs... but he's also had a LOT of garbage. And very few truly 'memorable' tales. 'Find Cartel/Dealers/Mafia/Gangsters.... Get shot at, Shoot back... Walk away.' I've heard a lot of people talk about how they like the idea of him... or how they like Garth Ennis on him... but nobody ever talks about his enemies or how to make the character compelling. Because he doesn't get to hold grudges, and his enemies don't come back.

He's had 3 movies that nobody likes. He's had Angel/resurrected version that killed demons... We've had FrankenCastle... We've had Blackface Punisher... Even Super-villain shooting version.' Drastically different directions just to breathe some life into him... only to end up back at status quo.

My man, the Punisher has been grossly mishandled in the films. But I suspect the Netflix series Daredevil will get it right. You watch and see.

[phantom1592]

You don't know much about Frank Castle. Castle doesn't have rogues because Castle...is...not...a...super...hero. No. He despises the superhero community in many ways. The Punisher by definition is a true vigilante. The war on crime and criminals? What Castle views as the superhero community giving lip service to, he/the Punisher literally engages in. The Punisher is an urban commando, dedicated to eradicating, wise guys, costume villains, or ANYONE that preys on his city for criminal purposes. Nothing else matters to this man. He is ALL about the mission.
Castle maybe a lot of things, but BORING ain't one of them.

First appeared in Spider-man... Wears a costume/logo... Fights crime... Works the same universe and crosses path's with Superhero community...

Much like the other incarnations... Castle has definitely had a few Superhero incarnations.

My man, the Punisher has been grossly mishandled in the films. But I suspect the Netflix series Daredevil will get it right. You watch and see.

I hope not.

Honestly I've given Frank quite a few trys, but he never really hooked me as being interesting at all. The ONLY times I like reading him, is when he's crossing over with Daredevil. When it's more a battle or morals and Philosophies then violence. Daredevil gets stuck trying to rescue a drug dealer or murderer for the sake of justice or to at least get something out of him... while Punisher just wants him dead like all the other scum.

THOSE stories get to be VERY interesting, but they are in fact Daredevil stories where he questions his own resolve to do things 'the right way.' I was VERY impressed with the Netflix DD show where (unlike the movie) Matt refused to cross the kill line. He came CLOSE.. .and I thought they were gonna botch that up... but he did not cross it.

I'm REALLY hoping that's what season 2 will be like. If they decide to make punisher look 'right' by killing the scum... and get away with it, I'll be disappointed.


One of the reasons that the movies have such a hard time, is that they are stuck on origin stories, and Frank's isn't that interesting. "My family was killed, now I get those responsible" is responsible for what?? 60% of all action movies ever?

I think the best punisher movie was sadly the Dolph Ludgren one. His origin was in the past... and he kept the war going after. He was hunting down mobsters and Yakuza who quite frankly had never done anything to him and never crossed him... they were just 'next on the list'...

THAT is what makes him different from every other lethal weapon/Death Wish franchise. He's not in it for revenge anymore... He's just fighting the 'war'.

[Lee Stone]

There's no logic to any hero not killing all the time
They are all vigilantes if you want to extend the enough is enough realistic narrative towards some villains then there is no longer any reason to pretend they all shouldn't just be killing every villain they come across

Likewise, if we put more realism in comics... most series wouldn't last longer than five issues.
Not because of sales numbers but because the hero would eventually get killed.