The problem of NO KILL code

[Agent Z]

Money. It really comes down to "show me the money." Joker is a cash clown--er--cow. I still say whack him and create another Joker down the road. Buffy eventually has to close the Hell Mouth. Richard Kimble eventually has to find the One Armed Man. Ahab eventually reckonsiles with Moby Dick. Holmes and Moriarty had their final reckong at Reichenbach Falls. You get the picture.

Which is fine. DC keeps Joker alive cause he makes money. I can accept that even if I don't like it. It's when they try to wring cheap drama out of it that people become annoyed by the existence of the "no kill rule". If you're not gonna kill if your cash cow, don't insult the reader's intelligence by acting like there's some moral dilemma in killing someone as monstrous as that.

How many people are too many? Should EVERY villain get killed? Every mugger who has a gun? Should you wait till they already killed someone, or stop them before it happens?

I have a feeling, that if you took a look at all the people Batman has beat up in the alleys.... they would outnumber the people that Joker has killed. If he killed Everyone he fought... he'd be a bigger murderer then Joker!

Who's saying he has to kill everyone? It's not like he won't run into some villains that won't require lethal force to stop.

Another thing that's also glaring is that Bruce is the only person who is safe from the Joker's cruelty. He'll never be shot and crippled by the Joker or beaten to death with a crowbar by the clown. But everyone else is fair game. Thus it makes the entire battle nothing more than a sick game between to disturbed individuals with every Gotham citizen caught in the middle.

[Carabas]

Batman is not... nor ever has been the only one with the cure. Everyone and anyone has the cure.

That is not how it is presented in practically any Joker story ever.

Worse, Batman regularily goes out of his way to keep the Joker alive.

[Slowpokeking]

The Joker has actually died, already, even excluding situations where most/all Earth/the universe have died.

And he came back.

He's been shot in the face, dropped in acid, strangled, set on fire, etc... and he comes back.

In the really real world, sure, shoot the bastard, he's done. Beat him with a crowbar for irony.

The DCU ain't - and never had been - the really real world.

Anyone is free to dislike that, but since it has worked very well for DC, I can't see what motive they would have for changing their tactics now.

Out of universe point of view, yes, but in universe, if it always works like that, nobody would blame Batman, he did what he could.

[MyriVerse]

You don't know much about Frank Castle. Castle doesn't have rogues because Castle...is...not...a...super...hero.

The difference between superhero and costumed vigilante is....??? The only thing Frank Castle is missing is a bloody Skull Symbol alert system. Otherwise, he's Batman.

[Carabas]

The difference between superhero and costumed vigilante is....??? The only thing Frank Castle is missing is a bloody Skull Symbol alert system. Otherwise, he's Batman.

Batman, the Punisher, and Superman are costumed vigilantes.

Batman and Superman are superheroes as well.
The Punisher is not a superhero, he's a serial killer.

[MyriVerse]

Batman, the Punisher, and Superman are costumed vigilantes.

Batman and Superman are superheroes as well.
The Punisher is not a superhero, he's a serial killer.

The two are not mutually exclusive. The Punisher is both, as well.

[Ghost Rider TheHellfireDemon]

Punisher has been characterized mainly as a antihero, neccesary evil, and I don't doubt Seeker of Vengeance.

Sinestro the infamous facist super villain has the philosophy of creating order through fear while Green Lantern (haljordan) considers all life sacred.
To the persons that want super heroes killing a lot I see them possibly becoming similar to Sinestro.

There are characters like Wolverine, Wonder Woman, and Hawkman where it works for them to kill in certain situations.
But not Superman the pure of heart Super Hero which is the highest good, and vast others that wont kill in most situations.

[Carabas]

Punisher has been characterized mainly as a antihero, neccesary evil, and I don't doubt Seeker of Vengeance.

He hasn't been a seeker of vengeance in a long, long while.

The people who killed his family are dead. The people who ordeed it are dead. Everybody even slightly connected to it are dead. Now he's just killing because he really loves killing.
He's not an anti-hero. He's and anti-villain.

Nevermind that "Seeker of Vengeanc" is an absolutely terrible superhero motivation.

But not Superman the pure of heart Super Hero which is the highest good, and vast others that wont kill in most situations.

Excepty for when Superman does kill... And Wonder Woman falls squarely under "others that wont kill in most situatio". Superman has probably killed more people than Wonder Woman.

[t hedge coke]

Nevermind that "Seeker of Vengeance" is an absolutely terrible superhero motivation.

I'm always a little suspicious of people who pick a superhero like Batman and decide that if he solved his parent's murder and caught the killer, he'd stop helping people. That all pretty much any straight superhero, from Batman to Firestorm, Wolverine to Spider-Man has is a quest for vengeance.

Two big differences between Superman killing and Punisher, for me, are that a) Superman doesn't want to kill, but he will, and b) the Punisher has never been massively selective about who he tries to kill. He's introduced trying to kill Spidey based on something some wierdo said to him. He can be the hero of the story, he can be a supporting character, a protagonist, but outside of extreme satire, superhero isn't in the cards unless no one is paying attention. "Superhero" in the same way some reviews of Sin City would call Marv one.

[Carabas]

The two are not mutually exclusive. The Punisher is both, as well.

Going to have to disagree with that.

There is nothing superheroic about the Punisher. And him not having powers has nothing to do with that.

[t hedge coke]

Sinestro the infamous facist super villain has the philosophy of creating order through fear while Green Lantern (haljordan) considers all life sacred.
To the persons that want super heroes killing a lot I see them possibly becoming similar to Sinestro.

There are characters like Wolverine, Wonder Woman, and Hawkman where it works for them to kill in certain situations.

And, yet, Hal has been prepared to kill far more people than Wolverine, and probably, actually, has killed more through his actions. We can blame Yellow Fear Demon, now, but at the time of Parallax, it was just Hal, being constructively murdery.

Such is the way with serial characters who go through divers hands, though.

[MyriVerse]

Going to have to disagree with that.

There is nothing superheroic about the Punisher. And him not having powers has nothing to do with that.

There are plenty of superheroes that have no power, so right, "nothing to do with that."

"Hero" is never anything but a subjective term. Anyone can be one. There's absolutely zero objective criteria for being one. It's to the point that the word is completely useless.

Punisher is a costumed vigilante. So are all of them.

[t hedge coke]

There are plenty of superheroes that have no power, so right, "nothing to do with that."

"Hero" is never anything but a subjective term. Anyone can be one. There's absolutely zero objective criteria for being one. It's to the point that the word is completely useless.

Punisher is a costumed vigilante. So are all of them.

Costumed Vigilante and Superhero aren't necessarily the same thing, though, I would imagine, to most people (and particularly, most superhero fans).

I don't think most of the people who've professionally handled the Punisher, over the years, think of him as a superhero. I know some flat have not.

I think most dictionary definitions of superhero are flawed or incomplete, but a commonality is "benevolent," which the Punisher certainly is not.

[WestPhillyPunisher]

I think most dictionary definitions of superhero are flawed or incomplete, but a commonality is "benevolent," which the Punisher certainly is not.

I beg to differ. Frank does show some level of benevolence, for instance, he goes out of his way to avoid getting civilians caught up in his battles, and he never targets law enforcement personnel...unless they're dirty, then all bets are off. That's all I got.

[t hedge coke]

I beg to differ. Frank does show some level of benevolence, for instance, he goes out of his way to avoid getting civilians caught up in his battles, and he never targets law enforcement personnel...unless they're dirty, then all bets are off. That's all I got.

That's a pretty low bar to set. It did make me realize, though, that while he is happy to fight or even attack superheroes... they are criminals, after all.